The next generation...

[Odyssey]

An odd set of behaviors in the DDR scene, community, or whatever it must be called, are easily recognizable as of the dawn of '07.

Consider the commercial and social successes of Dance Dance Revolution and the dance game scene as of last year, leading to this point:
*Promotions
*Implimentation into West Virginia
*Widespread recognition in the United States alone
*Console version releases more common than before
And, with this, at least, from what can be observed,
*An increase of younger players on various levels

However, an interesting trend also falls to the opposite end of the spectrum of interest:
*Notable decrease of tournaments and "official" competitions in former "hotbed" states and areas
*Notable veterans "moving on"/"retiring"/whatever the term shall be.
*Other acts of disinterest from former veterans.

In short, the "old" fanbase is growing tired and old, but commercial and social interest has seldom been higher, not catering to the needs of the "old" but instead answering to the "new" crowd's becks and calls.

One could predict that this "new" generation of DDR players (and, arguably, other dance games; for the sake of this topic, however, the encompassing term will be "DDR", sorry ITG, PIU, TM, whatever players.) will take DDR to the same heights of popularity and use, if not higher. However, with a lack of organization of events and/or other outlets outside of console play (and, even, including those) from former veterans, this scene could also FADE with the new crowd.

What are your takes? Does the new generation carry the same enthusiasm that players once had in the day that Dance Dance Revolution (1st Mix) had?

</fakesoundingsmart>

I'mma say, I'm torn. I mean, it COULD happen. However, without events sponsored by the likes of RedOctane, Konami, or much of ANYONE lately (with notable shortages in California, both Nor- and So-), I doubt that the scene has much air left in its lungs outside of what console releases have pumped into them.

Your guys' thoughts, please.
_________________

Used to be Zoupzuop2. Now I'm not.

[2016] Came back to see what a huge weeb I was. loloops

[RBCF retunes]

I agree. Even though former veterans have "moved on", they've mostly moved on to ITG, which kept dance games alive in the US when everyone thought DDR was dead.
_________________

QWERTYkid911: If someone posts porn, then this thread will perfectly represent the internet.

Slowpoke: Ah, so that's how He created the universe so quickly... He was hopped up on caffeine. Thanks for clearing up that philosophical mystery...

PooingCavy: (About difficulty levels) If I could make it up, it would be: Water, Soda, Coffee, Red Bull, ADHD

[Da-Risin-Smoke]

What I think?

We have more opportunities.

I play ITG now, and DDR just as practice and amusement.
Besides, ITG and their r21 along with the wonderful pads make great.

StepMania and ITG2 PC are here; I plan to make my own machine; we didn't have SM back when (but I was in grade school then).

The Konami vs. Roxor incident shook us up.
ITG is still here. I'm still here.

It depends how we look at it.
_________________

Knock knock.
Who's there?
I eat mop.
I eat mop, who?
Haha, you eat your poo.
Groovestats

[Odyssey]

[RBCF retunes]

[DarkCore]

[AA Bob]

Edit: Wow, this is a REALLY long post. I hope that at least one person takes the time to read it all.

Well, here are my thoughts on the future of DDR (and 4-panel games in general)...

4-panel dancing game players can generally be divided into the following categories:
1) Beginners who play every now and then. They don't really care about the difference between a Perfect and a Great; they just like the music or try DDR because it looks like fun.
2) People who play more often than group 1, but still don't care too much about their scores. They often buy console versions and cheap soft pads so they can play at home.
3) The hardcore PA/FA crowd. These players usually use score tracking sites, and work hard to improve their technique. Some of them buy home versions and metal pads, although they usually buy them just for practice since they often feel that arcade scores are much more important. People in this category are not necessarily experts, but all of the experts do belong to this category.
4) Freestylers, but I'll ignore them since they have greatly decreased in number over the years.

When Extreme came out, players were not nearly as skilled as they are now. While groups 1 and 2 probably spent way more money on DDR than group 3 (because of the sheer size of groups 1 and 2), there was a lot of stuff in Extreme to appease group 3.

A while later, along came ITG. Much of group 3 loved it. Extreme was starting to become stale, and ITG's new charts, new songs, new mods, etc. were very popular with many members of group 3. Many of the people who liked Extreme's 10s really liked ITG for its difficulty. Groups 1 and 2 played ITG too, of course, but ITG was more of a "by hardcore fans, for hardcore fans" game than DDR. ITG generated an enormous amount of interest among avid dancing game players, and created a higher standard of difficulty for 4-panel arcade dancing games.

Then came ITG2. It picked up where ITG had left off, with tons of new songs, charts, and features. Novice mode made it more accessible to beginners. By now, there were a lot of extremely good players looking for a challenge, and ITG2 catered to that.

During this time, Konami had not released an arcade game to replace Extreme. Groups 1 and 2 continued to pour money into DDR machines, and continued to buy home versions. Meanwhile, some members of group 3 were losing interest in DDR. Unfortunately, DDR and ITG are so different in terms of music and chart difficulty that many people became "loyal" to one game or the other. Even group 3 was split by this, with Konami losing some of its hardcore fans to Roxor.

Then we heard about Supernova. This was Konami's chance to continue where they had left off a few years ago. Would they go the extra mile and fix the problems hardcore players had with DDR, or would they take the easy route, knowing that groups 1 and 2 provided more than enough money? As it turned out, they chose the latter option. Triplets were not fixed, the arrows were still sprites that blended easily into the background, the modifier list was not changed much, and most of the charts they made were 7s and 8s. They made a half-assed attempt at acknowledging the ITG fans in group 3, and failed hard. Instead of taking notice of the fact that many hardcore players liked difficult steps, they made a lot of their hard songs difficult to read. They whored out tempo changes and stops and made Rainbow and Note useless. They did ridiculous things with the charts (HDV freaking needs TRIPLETS), and some of the charts whose steps were actually hard were still plagued with gimmicky difficulty and lack of creativity (seriously, I think I could get a monkey with a lobotomy to make something better than HDVO). I'd go into more detail about the 10s, but I think Tyrgannus's thread from a few months ago already explained everything that needs to be said.

So now what had DDR become? Something for groups 1 and 2. It hadn't completely lost its popularity among group 3, but many people in group 3 (myself included) were severely disappointed by Supernova. In the end, Supernova wasn't really anything new and exciting.

Well, there was still ITG, right?

Nope. Konami squashed it, killing the future of the dancing game that many hardcore fans liked most. Sure, there's R21, but it's just not the same. The ITG2 machine near me doesn't even get updated.

I was playing Faxx slowed down in Training Mode the other day, trying to step to silence and remember where the speed changes were while looking at all-green arrows, when I realized something: I wasn't having fun at all. In fact, I realized that SN PS2 really wasn't anything special to me. Something that was present in the older home versions was conspicuously absent in SN, yet I couldn't put my finger on it.

I thought about the recent ITG2 PS2 beta, and what a difference there was between it and SN PS2. Playing ITG2, it was obvious that it was made by a company that took great pains to listen to its fans. SN was made by a company that knew that it could get away with being mediocre. Most of the people who play DDR, both at home and at the arcade, don't notice that the triplets are screwed up. They don't use Solo. They don't look at their Great count when they finish a song. Konami knew that. That's what's different about SN. When I play SN, I feel like I'm playing something for the masses by a company that knows it can get away with mediocrity. And that company had just killed ITG.

So what does this all come down to? Well, at this point, the future of 4-panel dancing games doesn't look good. Konami has a monopoly, and we all know what the absence of competition does to product quality. Tournaments are becoming rarer. Home version quality is (IMO) going downhill. Konami has no reason not to let DDR become easy and bland. There's no guarantee that they'll even make another arcade release. There isn't much hope that a new 4-panel game will emerge, since Konami would promptly destroy it. All we can do is live with R21, and hope for some kind of miracle.


Sucks to be in group 3.
_________________

My Recall (home scores)
DDR/ITG videos

Emptyeye wrote:

So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)?

[QWERTYkid911]

Wow. I have to hand it to you. That was the longest post that was actually worth the read. It kind of reminds of Madden...
_________________

[quote:ce519f785b="Flamebait"][quote:ce519f785b="_jpoppyz_"]that kid prolly gets 10 times the amount of pussy in a week than any of you guys will get in your lives.[/quote]
10 x 0 = 0[/quote]

[RBCF retunes]

[Cartoonist]

[AA Bob]

Yeah, the thing with the groups was just a generalization. I realize there are plenty of exceptions.

And about Novice mode...personally, I think it's useless, but I've seen people playing on it. So I guess it's helpful to some people.
_________________

My Recall (home scores)
DDR/ITG videos

Emptyeye wrote:

So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)?

[Odyssey]

Here's another idea to throw into the mix:

*What would need to happen to revive interest and playership in the dance game sect? How would it happen? On what sort of scale would playership need to return to make the "scene", for lack of a better term, come back to life?
_________________

Used to be Zoupzuop2. Now I'm not.

[2016] Came back to see what a huge weeb I was. loloops

[BX^3]

Whats the point of novice? I pretty sure a lot of people here started without it. I did and I didnt have some of those effects novice sometimes has on people ( i.e. going back to the middle and going through the modes very slowly) But i do agree on the post on the top.
_________________

Woof

[Mr. Wendell]

GROUP 4 FOR LIFE!!!

On the freestyle side, Supernova has SO much potential for freestylers to have tournaments for, but the long time veterans are either growing old and not as strong as we used to be (DON'T LOOK AT ME!!! ), are seeking new interests, or are yearning for some larger scale tournaments or event to make it worth spending time creating new performances. Then again some long time veterans work for Konami now, too.

I guess, to breathe new life into the game, IMO, DDR competitions (FS and/or PA) need to be on TV. If Spike TV can show MLG on its station, as well as ESPN with their Madden 2006/07 game competition, maybe DDR could do the same? It would be more than previous coverage. Not just a DDR documentary on G4 that happened 4 years ago. Not just an occasional showcase on MTV, primetime comedies, and parts of movies. I think we need a televised tournament/league that shows the competitive spirit and the comraderie that was formed by many of the players when we first started playing this game.

Sheesh, I'd be a commissioner for something like that...so long as I got paid for it...
_________________

Our formula for winning:
1. We go out, we hit people in the mouth.
2. We are not a charity. We cannot give them the game.
3. We execute, from the very start of the game to the very end of the game.

[Da-Risin-Smoke]

[Suko]

I agree with AA BOb on some issues. Primarily the fact that the differences in ITG and DDR definity caused a fracture in the community where "camps" were established. Personally, I am an accuracy nut and not one to play 10+ steps continually. That being said, my preferred game is DDR. However, as AA Bob pointed out, Supernova was such a horrendous letdown to a hardcore fan like myself, that even I ended up with distaste for Konami's corporate solution. ITG, while rediculously hard and lacking good Hard mode steps (that is my opinion), was at least pushing boundaries and creating new ideas and innovations. I firmly appreciate marketplace competition and am really angered to see Roxor have to give up ITG. Had the Bemani war continued between Roxor and Konami, one thing is for certain, we, the players, would come out the winners.

Now, about the original topic of the next generation. I agree with you and many of those points and here's my 2-cents.

The tournies have dried up. I recall a year or two ago having a tourny almost monthly. Now we haven't had one in over a year and a half. Why is that? Well, I can only guess, but I believe it was the introduction of the ITG2 cabinet in our area. When we (the players) were all participating ang playing on Extreme, the difference in playing levels was only minimal at best. The hardest songs we would generally play were the Max's, and accuracy was of far greater importance than insane stamina. However, since ITG2, those same accurate, dedicated players found somthing new to play (myself included). Unlike me, the majority of the players started dedicating themselves to Expert mode. Their sole goal soon became to "pass that song". Not, "get the best score possible". I saw them loose their accuracy and gain stamina. When we played together, the margins now between players were so great that it made tournaments pointless. The same one guy would always win, simply because in ITG, he had more stamina than everyone else. In DDR it was more a matter of tecnique and skill rather than the difficulty of the song. I honestly believed that this has been lost, especially on our generation. Because of this huge difference in playing abilities now, I feel that (at least in my area) the community has kinda grown apart. Simply because the people you used to go toe-to-toe with in DDR are now absorbed in ITG. And in ITG, a difference in player's stamina can make two nearly equal skill levels become as different as night and day.

Sorry for my long-winded post. I just had a lot to say about this topic.
_________________

"Arcades have gone away but the culture is not gone."

DDRecall | Groovestats | Beatspace | UI Bemani Club | Suko's Shirt Shack

[Odyssey]

Whoo-nelly! Long time since I've been in Chit-Chat! Might as well gravedig...

Suko, no need to apologize. What you had to say was important, and the long post only means you had a lot to say, which is a good thing.

If dance games are to return to the state they once were, I think that current players would need to return to Freestyle. True, it's a minority style now, it's not even one that I do very well (read: not at all). But before my "entry" into the scene, for lack of a better word, the Freestyle players were the ones responsible for the whole thing in the first place. At the minimum, we need to revive that feeling; that sort of wonder and light-heartedness that captured the on-lookers in the heyday. With the "friendly-competition" ideal surrounding the dance game scene, we'd be able to influence the new generation of players to become more involved in the community, and revive what's left.

The only problem is, the time it would (will?) take to influence the younger players to do as we once did will be too great to retain an interested audience. If we, the active few, pursued this, we'd still lose many experienced, almost pioneering individuals and players. Newcomers will hear of the names of former legends and assume they're just a memory, not knowing that they could very well be living down the street from a player who remembers the best of times.

Consider the likes of Surfing and some of the relatively newer sports (their type of "extreme" notwithstanding and pun not intended). Surfing saw its own rises and falls, and many veterans still pursue their joy, their craft decades after their heyday. Some argue that the 50's, 60's, etc. were the best days for surfing, and considered the years that followed its decay. Nevertheless, it remains to this very day. Instead of dying with the longboard, the shortboard style, created by fellow surfers, innovated over what could've been considered an old and dying craft. In a similar sense, perchance, it's our own decision to try to maintain what we have so the newer generation may innovate over our findings.

If anything, the best way we could gather attention to the scene is to take Konami's new publicity into account. Although their market has shifted to home versions, they still rely on the arcade scene for customers to relate to the product, I.E, "HAY ISN'T THAT TEH GAME AT TEH ARCADE? LIEK ZOMG WE HAF'TA GET IT IT IS SO FUN!!!!11ONESHIFT!". Some of the home-version crowd will be venturing into arcades from time to time to "try it in the real zone", to some extent. It is in this stage, when they're exploring their options, that we are able to show them what they're capable of. This would mean, however, that the players would have to be tolerant of a few things, and not bite the heads off of newcomers that, say, shadow, hop on the other pad (one would hope, at LEAST, that they ask beforehand), take a long time to find "that one song that sounds like a gameboy", ad nauseum. However, didn't we start this way as well? Give them some room, and they'll grow to be like the best of us.

The choice falls to our hands. Do we try to influence the new wave of gamers to follow in our footsteps, to spend their time organizing events for the good of the many, to follow what could almost be said to be a lifestyle in itself? Or do we let a sickly and old pastime fall dead? I think we still have influence over potential newcomers, and, if we try to uphold what we have going, we will soon be seeing new celebrities on the horizon. The next Mel B. The next Tigger. The next... you get the picture. No matter if it's ITG, DDR, PIU, Pop'n Stage, Techno-motion, some crazy and questionably legal Stepmania modification... if people still play it, and organize events for it, newer generations will be interested.

Now for the version without the American flag and national anthem blaring into everyone's faces:

Maybe we should just organize crap ourselves, invite other peeps to come. The new publicity could serve us well, at the cost of former players. A return to freestyle would do us well, too, as it'd counter that whole "sweaty, angry kids moving 9000 mph/kph" stereotype I've come across.
_________________

Used to be Zoupzuop2. Now I'm not.

[2016] Came back to see what a huge weeb I was. loloops

[BustAGroovey]

I'm thinking about retiring myself. It's been a good 7-8 years. Wow..come to think of it that's almost half my life(I'm 19). My peak of interest with DDR was during 3rd mix, then it kinda went down from there. But I'll still play the Bust A Move(Bust A Groove) series. I'll always stay true to that since Bust A Move introduced me to the great wonder of music games. Also I started getting into Pop'n Music since last November.

Well..I had my special moments and memories...I guess it's time to move on.

[TPF.Catch22]

I completely agree with everything said by Bob.

R21 has left the opportunity for many of the hardcore players to do wonderous things (see EvilDave and Dukamok), but in general I see a definite decline in "group 3's" enthusiasm for playing.

I believe the younger generation is simply sticking with DDR and its golden age of mediocrity, while ITG is quickly diminishing into a shadow of what it was before. No one can honestly expect Konami to do anything more with the In the Groove franchise. They profit from inexperienced players while dedicated fans lose out.

Personally, I have been revitalized by Stepmania for the sheer volume of originals; it's like experiencing ITG all over again.

(Yeah, I sound like a completely Roxor fanboy, but DDR has been incredibly disappointing for me for the last half year.)
_________________

GrooveStats - Gib Challenges

[Ryudori]