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Scintilla
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Location: New Jersey |
40.  Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| sherl0k wrote: | | Face it. Either you're a hardcore ITG player or you don't play at all. There's no "casual" playing of In The Groove. At least that's what I've seen. |
Does playing all the 7-foot bubblegum pop charts count as "hardcore"? Because I definitely did a lot of that just this weekend.
(Admittedly, that was only because one of the machines rejected my USB pen/jump/flash drive and the other one didn't even realize it was in the slot; what I REALLY wanted to do was play some old DDR songs I'd never gotten to play in the arcade ever. And I also admit I'm in the minority. But oh well.)
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CHUCK BASS
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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| 41. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
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I bet you if ITG was a sucky game, this would have never happened.
I guess it's really getting closer to the end.
*sigh* |
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Liquid Zero
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Joined: 11 Apr 2003
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| 42. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| A Beautiful Collision wrote: |
(Post of Great Justice)
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I <3 this post.
*sighness*
If only all the unreasonably enraged fanboys who post in this thread would actually read your post... =(
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Oh, and for the record, I hope your "learns from ITG" possibility is the one that comes true, more than anything.
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KingofLight06
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Location: Syracuse, NY & Rochester, NY |
| 43. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Liquid Zero wrote: | | A Beautiful Collision wrote: |
(Post of Great Justice)
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I <3 this post.
*sighness*
If only all the unreasonably enraged fanboys who post in this thread would actually read your post... =(
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Oh, and for the record, I hope your "learns from ITG" possibility is the one that comes true, more than anything. |
I like DDR. I like ITG. I read this post (of great justice  ), and I understand your points, although there are two things that I disagree with.
This patent is stagnating the improvement of this style of dance games. Yes, Roxor went about it in the wrong way, but I feel that it was necessary so that Konami could see areas for improvement, and try to improve it. Maybe this will help to develop this style of dance games.
The giant fanbase of young girls, moms, dads, and the middle aged men you refer to mainly play on the home versions. I see a couple of these people play on arcade machines regularly, but it was mainly just for a first try ever or just testing the arcade compared to home versions.
So, I feel that Konami can now please both of its fanbases by continuing their work on their home versions, but now adding some essences of ITG to their arcade versions to help please the hardcore fanbase.
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| One Bad Apple wrote: | | KingofLight06 wrote: | | Eh, it's not that bad. When you're playing Single, and you're really tuned in, you hardly even notice it. |
Everytime I read this, I see "Eh, it's not that bad. When you're single, and really turned on, you hardly even notice it" |
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koffan
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Sacramento |
| 44. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| FTG_ZMatrix wrote: | I bet you if ITG was a sucky game, this would have never happened.
I guess it's really getting closer to the end.
*sigh* |
Didn't Konami do something about that sucky MadCatz game?
Anyway, A Beautiful Collision's post should be.... stickied or something.
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Phrekwenci
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Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Location: New York, NY |
| 45. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I think a bit of the problem with people thinking the ITG fan-base is so big is the fact that it may be largest in its web-form. Perhaps the visual fan-base of DDR fans as opposed to ITG fans via the web is what some people are looking at, and is ultimately wrong.
There's most likely 5 or so people who have probably heard of DDR, played it somewhere, or own it for their home on the block that you live on.
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triad.spacefight
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Location: OKC |
| 46. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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http://www.ddrfreak.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8590418&highlight=#8590418
Theres a nice story for you people who think new players can't have a blast with ITG.
Anyways, I got ITG2 for PC with the fluxes and I play Pump for free, so I honestly don't care what happens anymore. It sucks that ITG is gone, if for nothing more than the spirit of competition.
I enjoy ITG. As do many others. Maybe not as much as the DDR Fanbase, but it was significant enough. Hell, if you need an example, do you see flowfreak.com? Or MCGROOVEfreak.com? Do you see a flow or MCGroove forum on DDRFreak? Hell, Pump doesn't even have a forum here. Enough people were interested in it to warrant a shockwave through the dance game community. Some went  , some went  , and some went  . It became a solid #2 dance game in the US, and I think that's more than what they thought it would be when they first started.
Competition is a good thing, and I guess that was the major point of my post. I really hope Konami doesn't become stagnant again just because they are once again the only game in town.
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grumbles
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
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| 47. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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i'm sure arcades around the usa are absolutely joyed with this news
ddr is so awesome they will be begging konami/betson to sell them a $4500 upgrade kit with no new sensors/panels to install on their broken-down half-working 5 year old ddr cabinet asap |
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yyr
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Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Location: White Plains, NY |
| 48. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| [DoD] OmegaSox wrote: | | Hell, Pump doesn't even have a forum here. |
Try www.ph-online.net. Although that isn't the only US-based Pump site; there are others, like Pumpcore.
| sherl0k wrote: | | Face it. Either you're a hardcore ITG player or you don't play at all. There's no "casual" playing of In The Groove. At least that's what I've seen. |
I play mostly 8s and 9s on it, some 10s and 11s here and there. I have no desire to ever attempt the 13s. Does that make me "casual?"
One of the major reasons I love ITG so much is that RoXoR can deliver 10-footers and very challenging charts on actual dance music, instead of just MAXes, Paranoias and other hard techno. It's a breath of fresh air, and IMHO one of the biggest differences between the two games. Temple of Boom Single Expert is--to me--more fun than 90% of the new Single charts on SuperNOVA. Surprise!...there are others like it as well. And I sincerely hope that Konami will start to diversify the 10s in this manner. But I'm not optimistic that it'll actually happen.
| Ski Hawk wrote: | | Way to piss off your fanbase. |
As has already been stated multiple times, we really don't know the whole story yet. Nobody can conclude anything until we know exactly what Konami is going to do with this.
Who knows? They could announce tomorrow that RoXoR is now under contract with Konami to finish and release ITG3 in arcades, and that Konami will release a PS2 version of ITG2 in February 2007, with full USB and Edit support. Or Konami could bury the series and not do a thing with it. We just don't know. Yet.
| TheBigP wrote: | | But damn, if Konami feels like going on a roll, they could craq down on stepmania now if I get it right. |
| TheBigP wrote: | | Is it okay for Roxor to still host the updates on Roxor's website?? |
Stepmania is given away for free. Nobody's making any money off of it, and it probably has such a miniscule impact on Konami's bottom line that they don't care. If they did, they'd have done something by now.
The ITG2 updates are also given away for free, and they contain no music content. If RoXoR is allowed to support the machines they have already sold, then I see no reason why they can't provide updates. If Konami has a problem with R21, I'd expect it to disappear soon.
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Mr. A
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Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Location: INTERNET |
| 49. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Now cracks a noble cabinet. Good night, sweet machine, may flights of angels sing thee to thy rest! |
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Wolfman2000
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Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere in NC |
| 50. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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sherl0k: I'm a casual ITG player. Actually, I'm a casual music game player in general right now, but that's due to local conditions.
I'm not a fan of what's happened myself. I understand enough of both sides and their reasoning, but the case did put a sour note on a players on both sides, especially on the "with prejudice" notice, saying that this case can't be revisited.
Each game brought something different to the table. Each game had its innovation. For all we know, even Mad Catz MC Groove thing and (insert company here)'s Flow brought innovations to the genre. (Is Flow being sued?)
I'm mostly disturbed due to the lack of innovation and fair competition that I'm seeing. Konami aquires ITG, then Sony stops Lik-Sang. What is next: Microsoft buys out Nintendo?
While I'm concerned about how this case ended up, I actually wonder what things will be like down the road.
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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 51. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfman2000 wrote: | | I understand enough of both sides and their reasoning, but the case did put a sour note on a players on both sides, especially on the "with prejudice" notice, saying that this case can't be revisited. |
That's hardly uncommon in cases like this. It's primarily to indicate that because both parties have settled their arguments, neither of them can decide they don't like the agreement and take it back to court. The "with prejudice" doesn't mean that the court is taking a crap on Roxor or anything like that. It just means that the court will hear no further proceedings on the matter, from either side. Remember that Roxor had counterclaims against Konami, and so Konami is also conceding as much as Roxor, legally speaking.
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cfusionpm
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Location: San Diego, CA |
| 52. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| yyr wrote: | | Temple of Boom Single Expert is--to me--more fun than 90% of the new Single charts on SuperNOVA. |
well there's your problem; you're only playing single mode. you're missing out on half of the game!
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Scarenormous!
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Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Location: here |
| 53. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| cfusionpm wrote: | | TheBigP wrote: | | DDR's appearence has gone down, from being a videogame for the hardcore arcade-goers to being a buzzword amoung 35 year olds in Toys-R-Us with 8 year old daughters. Because, as you said, there are more 8 year old gerls than there are hardcore arcade-goers. So, ITG comes along and tries to take the series in another direction, and it starts to work, leaving DDR to the kids and ITG to the gamers. But now we're forced to go back to DDR. And DDR isn't exactly that inviting. You might say hey, Supernova has FaxX and Chaos and Facination and Paranoia Respect and Max-Me-Mix and Xepher, which is okay, but honestly, that's six songs which aren't even that great. If you want a challenge on DDR, there's a couple songs per mix, the last few missions, then AAAing everything. |
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I'm saying it isn't very inviting to me. And I am not someone who bases the world off of groovestats, fyi. So anyway, what I'm saying is that the the new ddr games aren't fun if you are good.
| kingoflight06 wrote: | | The giant fanbase of young girls, moms, dads, and the middle aged men you refer to mainly play on the home versions. I see a couple of these people play on arcade machines regularly, but it was mainly just for a first try ever or just testing the arcade compared to home versions. |
I agree with this, but I do own every ps2/1 USA home version of DDR, plus ITG and PIU, and I will continue to buy every one that comes out because I believe in the dance game genre and I hope it continues. Most of these people just have Extreme, and some crappy mat, and they won't buy any more.
| sherl0k wrote: | | I'm more apt to play 5th mix than SN or ITG2 |
I am too, however I have to drive about 100 miles to get to the nearest 5th mix. I won't deny that songs that are easy can also be good, but in newer DDR mixes they aren't. I like a good challenge, I like going into the arcade with money and coming out empty-handed and sweaty(from playing ITG). I run cross country, so I have great stamina, I've ran 5 miles to my arcade (with a friend, I'm not this much of a loser) then got a B on PSMO. I like games when there's songs I can't even pass.
Yes I play challenge mode courses. I have most of the top scores in my arcade. I get 90+ on most of them on max2, because no, playing a few consecutive 8-footers with good timing is not that hard to me. And still, if I wanted to get like 99% on all of them, then I would be playing the same thing over and over until I perfected it. At least ITG had an abundance of challenges, and I actually liked playing 50% the songs in ITG as opposed to around 15% in the newer DDR mixes.
And I really don't see what's so bad about ITG home mix. It was a better mix of songs (IN MY OPINION) than any DDR mix put out, because most DDR home mixes have three to ten songs I like to play. If you mean because it didn't sell, then I don't judge games by how they sell, because then Madden, Madden, and Madden would be the best games ever and games like Ico, Shenmue, StarCraft, Viewtiful Joe and Katamari Damaci would be terrible.
I realize that us ITG fans are a small bunch, but I don't see why you criticize us for liking games that cater specifically to people like those who play these games enough to belong to a website devoted completely to them. This is "DDRFreak," not "DDR I like to play it sometimes but I'm not that good and I would rather do other things."
And about the legality thing: I can give away copywrited music for free without a licence and not make any money off of it, but that's still illegal. The way that the settlement was stated did not limit it to PS2 games being sold for profit. I know they might not care about stepmania now, but they might end up caring.
And if Roxor put out an update for ITG today, they would then be putting out an update for a game owned not by them. I think it's violating the settlement for Roxor to continue to work on and release versions of a game they aren't supposed to own anymore. I guess it's Konami's call if they want the updates still available. They didn't write a new licence yet, did they? Because I would need a licence to host, say, PSP firmware updates on my website, even though those are provided for free.
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Cutriss
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| 54. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBigP wrote: | | The way that the settlement was stated did not limit it to PS2 games being sold for profit. |
Uh, not sure where you got that from. | Quote: | | It is therefore, ORDERED that Defendant Roxor Games, Inc., and officers, agents, servants, employees, and any person in active concert or participation with them, are hereby permanently enjoined from, direct or indirectly, making, having made, importing, using, offering to sell or lease, and/or selling or leasing, or assisting, causing, inducing, or agreeing with any other entity to make, have made, import, use, offer to sell or lease, and/or sell or lease, any dance games and other rhythmic games that use computer technology to infringe one or more of the Asserted Patent Claims, specifically including, without limitation, the In The Groove(R) dance video game, including, but not limited to, all generations of Roxor's In The Groove(R) arcade dance games, In The Groove(R) home console dance games, and In The Groove(R) personal computer dance games. |
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cfusionpm
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Location: San Diego, CA |
| 55. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBigP wrote: | | Yes I play challenge mode courses. I have most of the top scores in my arcade. I get 90+ on most of them on max2, because no, playing a few consecutive 8-footers with good timing is not that hard to me. |
well, on a supernova, a ~90% is pretty average for any decently skilled player, 90% on a max2 is abysmally bad. for example, a marvelous-based % score i recieved on X course from supernova would be say 94%, but using the max2 perfect-only-based % score, it would have easilly been 99%. you say it isnt that hard, but i say you just arent that good at it, and thus dismiss it entirely.
| Quote: | | At least ITG had an abundance of challenges, and I actually liked playing 50% the songs in ITG as opposed to around 15% in the newer DDR mixes. |
thats fine, but thats totally your opinion and not objective fact.
| Quote: | | And I really don't see what's so bad about ITG home mix. It was a better mix of songs (IN MY OPINION) than any DDR mix put out, because most DDR home mixes have three to ten songs I like to play. |
maybe in america, but the japanese mixes (untill party collection and strike) were all very good; especially extreme. but again, entirely your opinion (which you are entitled to).
| Quote: | | If you mean because it didn't sell, then I don't judge games by how they sell, because then Madden, Madden, and Madden would be the best games ever and games like Ico, Shenmue, StarCraft, Viewtiful Joe and Katamari Damaci would be terrible. |
well, its not just because it sold horribly (the gamestop near me got 3 copies upon launch, and i've never seen it for sale anywhere else ever), but its also just a bad game overall. its riddled with horrible load times, butchered censored songs, and a complete lack of polish. it feels like a high school kid's homebrew ps2 project at best.
| Quote: | | I realize that us ITG fans are a small bunch, but I don't see why you criticize us for liking games that cater specifically to people like those who play these games enough to belong to a website devoted completely to them. This is "DDRFreak," not "DDR I like to play it sometimes but I'm not that good and I would rather do other things." |
i dont critisize you for liking it; you should, it was catered directly to you! (using the "you" to represent the collective itg-loving whole). in fact, i dont critizise them for it directly; i merely state that since they didnt come up with the idea (stolen from konami), didnt do any sort of R&D work (also from konami), didnt have to design or build a cabinet (again, stolen from konami), and didnt need to create their own software coding (stolen straight from stepmania) they were then capable to create a game that would and could cater to a small target audience without much financial loss (if any).
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Scarenormous!
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| 56. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It is therefore, ORDERED that Defendant Roxor Games, Inc., and officers, agents, servants, employees, and any person in active concert or participation with them, are hereby permanently enjoined from, direct or indirectly, making, having made, importing, using, offering to sell or lease, and/or selling or leasing, or assisting, causing, inducing, or agreeing with any other entity to make, have made, import, use, offer to sell or lease, and/or sell or lease, any dance games and other rhythmic games that use computer technology to infringe one or more of the Asserted Patent Claims, specifically including, without limitation, the In The Groove(R) dance video game, including, but not limited to, all generations of Roxor's In The Groove(R) arcade dance games, In The Groove(R) home console dance games, and In The Groove(R) personal computer dance games. |
I don't know how related Roxor and Stepmania are, but every ITG release thanks the Stepmania community. Did someone who worked on Stepmania work with Roxor?
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Cutriss
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| 57. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBigP wrote: | | I don't know how related Roxor and Stepmania are, but every ITG release thanks the Stepmania community. Did someone who worked on Stepmania work with Roxor? |
There is a significant amount of crossover between Roxor and the Stepmania team. It would be fair to say that Roxor *is* Stepmania, though that certainly invites someone to come in and rattle off every single individual that is/isn't on each project.
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Joel Stud?!
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| 58. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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The ITG team used stepmania as the basis for it's ITG engine. ITG is really Stepmania polished over and modified. PLus I believe a portion of the ITG team is also on the Stepmania team.
However, Stepmania CANNOT be sued. It is an open-source project and makes no profit. As long as they do not use copyrighted materials they are void of any wrong. Heck, they can even use patented ideas as long as they don't sell their product. That's the beauty of open-source.
And just to clarify: There is nothing wrong with liking, enjoying, endorsing, or playing ITG. I own ITG PS2 myself and was eagerly awaiting ITG2 for home. However, I also understand that the claims made against Roxor were completely legitimate and you can't expect a company to put up with crap from companies like Roxor just because some of their consumers happen to like the competition. We still don't know what the future of ITG or DDR will be. Heck, both might disappear, both might continue, they might merge into one, oe one or the other might disappear. Obviously some of these situations are more probable, but all are possible, and EVERYONE needs to stop discrediting Konami until we see what happens.
If in five years we still haven't seen a song harder than the latest round of tens come out of a 4-panel Bemani released game, then you can start complaining. Until then, play for fun, tell Konami what you want (nicely) and pray that we see a change.
And to the ITG fanboys, DDR fanboys, neutrals, and the people who don't even play arrow-smash anymore but still hang around these boards for no distinguishable reason:
If you can't say anything nice [positive], don't say anything at all. |
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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 59. Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| A Beautiful Collision wrote: | | However, Stepmania CANNOT be sued. It is an open-source project and makes no profit. As long as they do not use copyrighted materials they are void of any wrong. Heck, they can even use patented ideas as long as they don't sell their product. That's the beauty of open-source. |
That's completely wrong.
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