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zdemigoth
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40.  Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| PrinceOfPersia wrote: | Key word in those phrases is "intellectual".
It just sounds like we're all victims of legal jargon here - intellectual rights does not mean they've secured any code or songs or anything like that of ITG. They've secured the _idea_ of ITG - which is basically all that their patent was trying to protect.
It would be absolutely ridiculous for the code or content in the game - arguably the ONLY completely legal parts of the game - to be transferred to Konami simply because the game itself infringes a patent. It makes no sense. |
Intellectual property isn't really the idea. It really references the commercial part of that idea.
Basically Konami had this idea for a dance simulation. They spent money and time to develop that idea into something that was tangible and WOULD produce a revenue, then spent more time and money to file for and obtain the patents on those tangible things in all potential markets in all countries that support international intellectual property rights, and then spent more time and money to promote the tangible thing through marketing, through console versions, and through a partnership with EMI using the soundtrack. It was an idea, but intellectual property covers very real things. In fact, a patent should not be awarded by the US Patent Office unless that item has been developed enough to be saleable (the motivation is that, if the company is willing and able to sell it and actually works to do so, they should be allowed a legal monopoly on that good for something like seventeen years or twenty years from the date of filing the patent).
What is not legal is the unauthorized use of a patented technology. The DDR cabinet was patented. I have seen with my own eyes an actual patent that has some horrible sketch of a DDR cabinet, sketches of what the interface would look like, and patented scoring algorithms that were used (the one that was based on combo). RoXoR put their boxes into patented cabinets without Konami approval for financial gain without providing Konami any of that money, at least not until they got to court  .
I myself am somewhat upset. It's sad to see that what was an innovative take on the game will most likely be squelched in favor of the Supernova setup. It is also sad because it looks like the competition RoXoR provided forced Konami's hand to release a new arcade mix which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise. I preferred ITG's 9/10 charts but loved DDR's music and would be happy to see the two combined, even though it probably won't happen. Regardless, the law states that those with patent rights get exclusive use of the technology for two decades. Without patent laws, no company would have any interest in pursuing R&D because they know once they release it, other companies would reverse engineer the product and release it in the market at a much lower cost because they avoided the hefty R&D expense. The law was upheld in this case, even if a lot of people are upset. |
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CHUCK BASS
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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| 41. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who wants the future of dancing games to progress any farther, will stop playing DDR right now.
Think of how much Nationals and Worlds got the word out about ALL dancing games.
But well, DDR Fanboys wont.
DDR started it, ITG got it to the world.
That's not important.
Konami want's more than what they have gotten.
Thank's Konami for ruining the best thing that's ever happened.
And Roxor, thanks for giving us our last bit of control. R21.
That's all I have to say. |
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PrinceOfPersia
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Joined: 14 Jan 2006
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| 42. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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...I'm not entirely sure what that had to do with my post, zdemigoth, but that's still good info for everyone to read regardless before people go too heavily up in arms.
And can I just worm in an advert for what appears to be now one of the only decent contenders with DDR left...
...Pump It Up?
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-Derek-
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Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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| 43. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeehaw McKickass wrote: | ITG 2 dedicabs just became worth their weight in silver, gold, platinum, enriched uranium, and weapons grade plutonium combined.
Probably a good thing I'm pretty much a Pump player now. |
So, seeing as how I possibly received one of the final ITG2 dedicated cabs (i got it last friday and have played on it a total of 5 days), do you really think they will go up in price? I guess they would be a collector's item, unless Konami produces ITG3. Maybe my plan of putting the machine in public place and get money should be set aside and I should just try to keep it in close to mint condition....
I still have a good feeling that Konami will release ITG3, based on the email I got from Chris Cotty, as well as it makes good business sense. ITG3 is "mostly" complete, so Konami would have to do minimal work to release it as an upgrade to ITG2 dedicated cabs, and they would probably get a decent amount of profit from it. Market it as "the final" version of ITG and everyone and their brother would probably snap it up, heck, they could even charge 2 or 3 times as much for it, if it had everything from ITG1, ITG2 and all the new stuff for ITG3.
Who knows though...Konami may just want to shut it down and put all the effort into Supernova. I guess we will see soon enough....
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Last edited by -Derek- on Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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ICNH
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Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Mahwah, NJ |
| 44. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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ZMatrix, lol. Let's say you made a unique style of hamburger. All that was needed in the hamburger was the patty, so you patented the style of hamburger for your gain. Then a company comes in and replaces your patty with their own and starts selling it, without any permission from you. I know this is SUCH a horrible example, but RoXoR had NO RIGHT to take a DDR cabinet and use it for their own personal gain. It's illegal; you'd be pretty pissed off too if someone tried to steal your hamburger style. Konami can get more than they already have/need/want. Because that is the way the law works. RoXoR broke the patent (as the court decided) and Konami gets it. Simple as that.
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CHUCK BASS
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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| 45. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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At the same time.
This is like saying.
"Hey I made Pole Position first, you can't make Need For Speed Underground."
Konami just want's to get rid of the better game, because they KNOW that Roxor listens.
Everyone <3's Roxor. |
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MagnetGenocide
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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| 46. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| FTG_ZMatrix wrote: | At the same time.
This is like saying.
"Hey I made Pole Position first, you can't make Need For Speed Underground."
Konami just want's to get rid of the better game, because they KNOW that Roxor listens.
Everyone <3's Roxor. |
QFT Roxor > Konami ..............I still love my IIDX tho  |
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ICNH
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Location: Mahwah, NJ |
| 47. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Your example isn't correct. Konami didn't sue because ItG is a dancing game very similar to DDR. Konami sued because the cabinets made by Konami were being used by RoXoR without Konami's permission. Konami probably wanted ItG off the market, but they couldn't do it by means of the games being similar. I think that if RoXoR didn't offer the upgrade to DDR cabs, they may still be producing ItG today. Not totally sure, but from my knowledge of this court case, I think that's the most probable outcome.
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Last edited by ICNH on Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Bunnymoon
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Location: NODNOL, CANADA |
| 48. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I kind of expected it when Activision bought out ROXOR, its not in there best interest to fight battles, there the kind of company that takes advantage of things when the dust settles.
Heres whats going to happen. Like its happened with Vivendi Universal (ie they bought Sierra and then fired everybody kept the name closed the studio) and with EA( ie when they bought DICE, 2 studios are closed and Im assuming more to come) they are going buy the property and run it into the ground or make it dissapear. They may take some of the ideas and concepts and use them in DDR. Theres no point in having more than one dance game, it basically divides the pie that they control into smaller parts. Plus its going to cost more to develop 2 of the same type of game.
But by next year your going to say ITG whats that?
Only the hardcores are going to remember.
I wonder how rare ITG for the PS2 will be worth now.
Im a sad PANDA 
Last edited by Bunnymoon on Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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Yeehaw McKickass
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Joined: 06 Oct 2002
Location: Chicago Area |
| 49. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| -Derek- wrote: | | Yeehaw McKickass wrote: | ITG 2 dedicabs just became worth their weight in silver, gold, platinum, enriched uranium, and weapons grade plutonium combined.
Probably a good thing I'm pretty much a Pump player now. |
So, seeing as how I possibly received one of the final ITG2 dedicated cabs (i got it last friday and have played on it a total of 5 days), do you really think they will go up in price? I guess they would be a collector's item, unless Konami produces ITG3. Maybe my plan of putting the machine in public place and get money should be set aside and I should just try to keep it in close to mint condition....
I still have a good feeling that Konami will release ITG3, based on the email I got from Chris Cotty, as well as it makes good business sense. ITG3 is "mostly" complete, so Konami would have to do minimal work to release it as an upgrade to ITG2 dedicated cabs, and they would probably get a decent amount of profit from it. Market it as "the final" version of ITG and everyone and their brother would probably snap it up, heck, they could even charge 2 or 3 times as much for it, if it had everything from ITG1, ITG2 and all the new stuff for ITG3.
Who knows though...Konami may just want to shut it down and put all the effort into Supernova. I guess we will see soon enough.... |
Acutally, I intended the statement as a joke that nobody seems to have gotten. I do see r21 as being a kind of turning point in the way four panel dancing games are thought of though
| [Insert Name Here] wrote: | | ZMatrix, lol. Let's say you made a unique style of hamburger. All that was needed in the hamburger was the patty, so you patented the style of hamburger for your gain. Then a company comes in and replaces your patty with their own and starts selling it, without any permission from you. I know this is SUCH a horrible example, but RoXoR had NO RIGHT to take a DDR cabinet and use it for their own personal gain. It's illegal; you'd be pretty pissed off too if someone tried to steal your hamburger style. Konami can get more than they already have/need/want. Because that is the way the law works. RoXoR broke the patent (as the court decided) and Konami gets it. Simple as that. |
The flaw in this whole situation is patent law. It was written way back before techonlogy exploded like it has lately and is in major need of an upgrade.
The thing that boggles my mind about the whole thing is how everyone claims that RoXoR had no right to take a DDR cabinet and use it for company gain, when that's what the basis of the arcade industry is. When a game gets old, you gut the cabinet and put a new game in it, this has been standard operating procedure for DECADES.
P.S. No courts decided anything, this was settled. Get your facts straight.
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Last edited by Yeehaw McKickass on Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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ICNH
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Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Mahwah, NJ |
| 50. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose no one has taken action, or has been able to prove their claims in a court of law, until now. And no matter how outdated a game is, if a company still has the patent on it, you can't mess with it. You can try, but things might not turn out all fine n' dandy.
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CubsWoo
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Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: St. Charles, IL |
| 51. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| FTG_ZMatrix wrote: |
Konami just want's to get rid of the better game, because they KNOW that Roxor listens.
Everyone <3's Roxor. |
If only they'd listened to Konami before they released ITG1. |
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SEXY BEAST
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Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 52. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Maxx! wrote: | Konami will not release any further ITG games. Roxor will (obviously) not release any further ITG games.
Konami will bury ITG and continue with DDR. |
That is the outcome I am looking for.
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0rion
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Location: Kirby will explain it to you. |
| 53. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I can almost guarantee that this is the end of In the Groove.
The reason I say this is that Konami earned the rights to In the Groove, but not the company that created it (Roxor). Roxor is still in business and still making different games, as evidenced above.
Had Konami bought out Roxor entirely, I would give In the Groove an even chance of continuing, as they could have incorporated them into their Konami of America branch (which might have been good for both franchises).
However, seeing as the two companies are still operating separately, one can only discern from the evidence that this is the end of In the Groove; and that Konami secured the rights to it for the sole purpose of burying the franchise once and for all.
Certainly, this is a grim conclusion, and there's always a chance that I might be wrong, but that is, as of right now, what I truly and completely believe.
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There's a little yellow bird on my avatar. (Brawl FC: 4640-1720-6690)
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zdemigoth
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Joined: 05 Oct 2002
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| 54. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| [Insert Name Here] wrote: | | I suppose no one has taken action, or has been able to prove their claims in a court of law, until now. And no matter how outdated a game is, if a company still has the patent on it, you can't mess with it. You can try, but things might not turn out all fine n' dandy. |
Oh but you can mess with it. RoXoR tried to claim that the patent held by Konami was invalid and that it should not be honored. Obviously it didn't work. |
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Wolfman Jake
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| 55. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't we already cover all this pseudolegal babble over a year ago when this whole mess started? It's over now. We know the outcome. Continuing to blather on about our ignorance of patent law doesn't change anything.
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Char
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| 56. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| zdemigoth wrote: | | The law was upheld in this case, even if a lot of people are upset. |
See now if we'd had an Ace Attourney like you watching over the case then we wouldn't have waited this long to hear the case's outcome. Just think, multiple months of litigation and process through the legal system replaced by a single post on an internet forum.
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| AJ 187 wrote: | | If your dance game makes Arch0wl and jsb quit, SOMETHING IS WRONG |
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yyr
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Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Location: White Plains, NY |
| 57. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Maxx! wrote: | Konami will not release any further ITG games. Roxor will (obviously) not release any further ITG games.
Konami will bury ITG and continue with DDR. |
Hopefully this will NOT be the truth.
Hopefully Konami will be smart, and realize that a lot of people actually play and enjoy ITG, and that many of these people prefer it to DDR. Knowing this, they should realize that they can reach out to--and profit from--TWO audiences instead of just one.
Even if they just release ITG3 and quit there, it will be better than completely alienating those players that have enjoyed ITG over these past couple of years. I guess that those of us looking forward to ITG3 should just put our trust in the big K and see what happens.
| Bunnymoon wrote: | | I kind of expected it when Activision bought out ROXOR, its not in there best interest to fight battles, there the kind of company that takes advantage of things when the dust settles. |
What are you talking about? Activision bought RedOctane, not RoXoR. Activision has nothing to do with RoXoR, especially now that the lawsuit is settled.
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Apoc
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| 58. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Konami's got the intellectual property rights seem to be to a -no pun intended- revolutionary video game style involving the player's moving in time with the patterns displayed on the screen, in a step pattern consisting of arrows situated up, down, left, and right.
RoXoR may have done some crazy-awesome, innovative, and overall supernice stuff with the idea, but it's still Konami's idea that they tampered with. It's kinda sad to think that the innovations might fall off the face of the earth, and that what many people considered a breath of life into a dying genre may have just been halted, but Konami's accusations are well-founded in this case. Particularly when RoXoR was actually using modified DDR cabinets. And Yeehaw McKickass, the difference is that the arcade cabinet design used by DDR and ITG is an integral part of the game, while most other arcade games can be made to fit pretty much any cabinet.
Who knows? Although unlikely, we may get lucky, and RoXoR will sell some of the ideas and song licenses to Konami, and we'll see mines, metal, robot, rolls, and some of the better ITG songs in future DDR releases.
Long live In The Dance Dance Groovalution!!
probably not though..
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| CEO Nwabudike Morgan wrote: | | I, CEO Nwabudike Morgan, on behalf of Morgan Industries, approve this post. |
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PrinceOfPersia
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| 59. Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeehaw McKickass wrote: | | The thing that boggles my mind about the whole thing is how everyone claims that RoXoR had no right to take a DDR cabinet and use it for company gain, when that's what the basis of the arcade industry is. When a game gets old, you gut the cabinet and put a new game in it, this has been standard operating procedure for DECADES. |
Jamma and Naomi cabinets are basically open designs where the designs for the cabinet are basically available for anyone to produce as with Jamma, or the company (Sega) is able to make money from sales of the cabinet themselves, and sells the games alongside the cabinets as games, which in turn makes them more akin to a games console.
DDR cabinets are not open designs - Konami doesn't provide any information on how to make upgrades for it, keeps their general design fairly secret, and even has security chips and features to prevent unauthorised upgrades. They are designed to keep people out of them, except for Konami themselves - and Konami are allowed to enforce that. ITG bypasses all of the security and takes away sales of Konami's upgrade kits, and tarnishes DDR's image because of the similar cabinets. As music game mixes are successive as opposed to simply providing greater choice of games like Jamma or Naomi, this gets a touch problematic. Yes, it's not perfect and is still open for discussion, but there are elements of fairness in it all.
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