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IHYD.DukAmok
Trick Member

Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Corona, CA

40.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject:

George W. Bush wrote:

You are all just jealous that you arent cool enough to go to 1950's Diners with him.

I think they're just jealous that they can't lose to a skinny red-headed kid twice in a row like I did.
_________________

Sappy_!?! wrote:

just to answer, if someone who stands next to you watching you play PSMO but you get a D on it, versus somebody who understands perfect attacking and stuff, will think you suck. A player is considered good in my opinion when a player of a higher level comments about you or see's you triple A a song. Or if somebody looks up to you. Hope it clarifies.

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

41.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject:

John Locke wrote:

KoFFreak: (1) Your reply to me wasn't even a complete sentence.

When were you bothered by people not doing "complete" sentences over a message board? Every time I check you respond no matter what with your facts....but then, I know you're going to start talking about something that has nothing to do with this, so forget about it. I'd rather you talk about the thread at hand, not what some posters have created.

Quote:

(2) DukAmok is the most knowledgeable active player in the entire world

Quote:

And KofFreaK, do you even know who DukAmok is?

Quote:

lmao i love people who insult dukamok....lmao it is funny here ill post some of his vids even tho everyone has seen them, im sure this guy who made this thread will shut up.

I know exactly who he is(atleast internet wize), as I said, "I was checking Groovestats..." But then hurleyguyy said "I" offended him....when clearly he was the one who started posting like many are doing now.

Quote:

Its the no-bar players that start whining and wanting to force bar players to stoop to lower standards, for no other reason than to affirmative action the playing field. That's dumb as all get out.

He said something, and then he assumed I said it and told me to get out. Even if he was some sort of ITG god... I didnt disrespect him, at all, or anybody. Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked? I know what the other threads look like, and I sure as hell wouldnt want to start a "u suck cause u use the bar" thread, Im actually avoiding all that while a lot of you bring it up. I actually want to get somewhere, peacefully...

0rion
Trick Member

Joined: 02 May 2005
Location: Kirby will explain it to you.

42.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject:

KofPerson wrote:

Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked?

Unfortunately, the answers are yes and yes. As I said before, I understand and appreciate where you're coming from, but now is just not the right time for something like this. People just don't like being reminded - however innocently - of a topic that has been the subject of such fierce debate of recent history.

It's kinda like the "Joel vs. Mike" discussions of the late 1990s. If you were a Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan on the Internet during that time, you know exactly what I'm talking about. But what happened was that someone would innocently bring up the deadly question: "Who was the better host of MST3K, Joel or Mike?" An innocent question, and there are certainly legitimate points to be made for either side, but the debate would ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL become a huge epic flame war between the two factions that simply couldn't accept the others' point of view.

A stupid thing to argue about? Most assuredly. But no less stupid than arguing the uses of a red painted metal thing.

Like the Joel vs. Mike debates, which are now the stuff of infamy, even mentioning the debate on whether or not to use the bar has become taboo. When feelings cool on the matter and it isn't discussed every month, that might be a different story. In the meantime, however, I would seriously just leave it alone.
_________________

-Sir "O"
There's a little yellow bird on my avatar. (Brawl FC: 4640-1720-6690)

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

43.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject:

Sir 0rion {DMC} wrote:

KofPerson wrote:

Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked?

I see. I wasnt aware of this "Joel vs Mike" debate, and this sounds very similar to what this thread really isnt about( but yet it seems that way, unfortunately). Ive said countless times before and I'll say it again, I started this thread to ask people what they thought about the idea of an extra section in groovestats, although some of you agree(knowing that it will end badly), instead I got hammered with "nobody cares if you dont use the bar" comments, and not commenting on the idea...limiting what can be done for the fun of others, or more if you would like to join.

IHYD.DukAmok
Trick Member

Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Location: Corona, CA

44.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject:

KoFFreaK wrote:

I didn't assume you wrote anything. You did write it.

Quote:

There could be a "x1" section and a free mods non-bar section, shared a long with bar-player scores.

You're essentially asking for an artificial inflation of certain scores. If a player chooses to play a song no-bar, that's exactly the same sort of choice as if they played the song on Invisible, or on 1x. If they feel like it, they can comment that it was 1x. People use the comments section to artificially inflate their scores all the time. Somehow if you get 3 excellents, then say they were all in the easy parts, your score is thought to be higher. Well guess what, those harmless comments don't actually affect the ranks.

What you propose would actually affect the ranks, and based on arbitrary limitations. Cory's reductio ad absurdium is exactly right. You might as well put a section for sandals players.
_________________

Sappy_!?! wrote:

IHYD.Blake
Vivid Member

Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Location: Solar City, California

45.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject:

IHYD.DukAmok wrote:

George W. Bush wrote:

You are all just jealous that you arent cool enough to go to 1950's Diners with him.

I think they're just jealous that they can't lose to a skinny red-headed kid twice in a row like I did.

Im actually pretty fat now.
_________________

J. S. Mill
Maniac Member

Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York

46.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject:

KoFFreaK wrote:

When were you bothered by people not doing "complete" sentences over a message board?

Allow me to be plainer: your response to me wasn't even a coherent thought. I can't reply to it for the same reason I can't reply to "aughdugfhs."

KoFFreaK wrote:

He said something, and then he assumed I said it and told me to get out.

Read your own quote. Show me where in that quote he says that you are saying bar players suck.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked?

No, Orion is wrong. I'd be more than happy to respond to a sober argument for your position. But when you spew out BS for five pages without adding a single sentence of content, what are we supposed to do?
_________________

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

47.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject:

IHYD.DukAmok wrote:

I didn't assume you wrote anything. You did write it.

You're essentially asking for an artificial inflation of certain scores. If a player chooses to play a song no-bar, that's exactly the same sort of choice as if they played the song on Invisible, or on 1x. If they feel like it, they can comment that it was 1x. People use the comments section to artificially inflate their scores all the time. Somehow if you get 3 excellents, then say they were all in the easy parts, your score is thought to be higher. Well guess what, those harmless comments don't actually affect the ranks.

What you propose would actually affect the ranks, and based on arbitrary limitations. Cory's reductio ad absurdium is exactly right. You might as well put a section for sandals players.

Heres what you said that I quoted:

Quote:

Its the no-bar players that start whining and wanting to force bar players to stoop to lower standards, for no other reason than to affirmative action the playing field. That's dumb as all get out.

You're telling me to get out because I said I want to FORCE people to stop using the bar and lower the standards? I want to see where I wrote that.

Quote:

There could be a "x1" section and a free mods non-bar section, shared a long with bar-player scores.

I will fully admitt that that was my initial idea right up until people started posting. As being the first post, I thought it could be an idea if this went further....seeing how all went, all I asked was for ONE section only after that in all my posts(you can check, they're unedited), ignoring what I said in the first post because this was hard as it is. And dont worry, it wouldnt affect the ranks, because they will be two completetly different score boards, it wouldnt touch the other side at all.

IHYD.Blake
Vivid Member

Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Location: Solar City, California

48. Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject:

And yet another person who has yet to learn that he will never win an argument against Cory Evans. Atleast others could argue in complete sentences... _________________

cody change your username
Trick Member

Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Location: San Diego, CA

49. Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject:

koffreak, you're a pompous idiot and you need to shut the fuck up.

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

50.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject:

John Locke wrote:

KoFFreaK wrote:

When were you bothered by people not doing "complete" sentences over a message board?

Allow me to be plainer: your response to me wasn't even a coherent thought. I can't reply to it for the same reason I can't reply to "aughdugfhs."

KoFFreaK wrote:

He said something, and then he assumed I said it and told me to get out.

Read your own quote. Show me where in that quote he says that you are saying bar players suck.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked?

Hmmm. Apparently, theres this one side that understand what Im doing, but know that it will end badly no matter what. Then theres this other side who disagree with me, and many show why it wouldnt work. But then you, you're just right there off to the side refusing to reply because you're probably too smart to read simple jibberish. Too bad, if you responded to whatever I have said we could probably carry a debate...which I know you just loove.

But for now, try to decipher my awful writing, or you'll miss the chance of ending this thread with a victory flag on top with your name.

J. S. Mill
Maniac Member

Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York

51. Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject:

A victory flag? You don't enter debates to win victories, whatever that means. You've said nothing on this thread. You've talked for five pages without saying anything. Until you present an argument, everything you've said on this thread is just worthless. There's nothing to reply to. _________________

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

52.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject:

John Locke wrote:

A victory flag? You don't enter debates to win victories, whatever that means.

You've said nothing on this thread. You've talked for five pages without saying anything. Until you present an argument, everything you've said on this thread is just worthless. There's nothing to reply to.

Ok, Im gonna go your way.

Lets just say we were sitting across each other, drinking a coke...whatever, and I asked you:

"John Locke? what do you think of putting an extra section in groovestats for non-bar players, you know, just to make it a little more challenging for players who like to play no bar, and to see what they can accomplish?

Just in case you think this idea so overly stupid:

"What are your reasons? I mean, it wouldnt affect bar player scores, would it? I think this will broaden the game making new goals if the old ones got perfected....so, what are your reasons for denying this extra section?"

AA Bob
Trick Member

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Alllll right!

53.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:

Okay, I just read this whole thread.

KoFFreaK actually has a halfway good suggestion here. It would be useful to no-bar players to be able to quickly see how they stack up against other no-bar players. He's not saying that people who don't use the bar should automatically be bumped up in the rankings. He's not suggesting anything that would affect the people who always use the bar. All he's suggesting is a separate ranking for no-bar players. So why are most of you flaming him?

What is the difference between playing no-bar and playing in sandals? One (and I hesitate to say this, as it might make me look like a no-bar purist, something I'm definitely not) requires significantly more balance and effort, the other doesn't. More importantly, some people may actually want a separate ranking for no-bar scores, but I don't think there's anybody who would have any use for a sandals ranking. This isn't rocket science.

Also - while you could say that using the bar is just limiting yourself, I say it's challenging yourself. Sure, you won't score as well. Sure, you'd be stupid as hell to not use it on a difficult song in a tourney. But some people enjoy playing without the bar.

KoFFreaK made it clear in his first post (and several others) that this is not a bar debate thread. But you guys are acting like it is. Seriously, did any of you even read the first post? It sure doesn't look like it. Here's this thread in a nutshell:

Quote:

KoFFreaK: "Hey, what if there was a separate ranking for no-bar players? Please don't turn this into a debate."
Everyone else: "HEY SHUTUP DON'T TELL US HOW TO PLAY BLAH BLAH SANDALS MIDGETS NAZIS"

KoFFreaK's not suggesting that anybody be forced (or even persuaded) to change their playstyle. If there was a no-bar ranking on GS and you thought it was a dumb idea, then guess what? You could ignore it. It wouldn't affect you in any way, at all, ever.
_________________

My Recall (home scores)
DDR/ITG videos

Emptyeye wrote:

So um, is it bad that awhile ago I was watching Family Guy, and when Quagmire came on, I thought something to the effect of "Whoa, It's AA Bob!" (I don't remember if the exact thought was "It's AA Bob" or "It's AA Bob's avatar", but I don't think it matters in this case)?

squirrel_wrangler[spoink]
Trick Member

Joined: 21 May 2002
Location: work

54.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject:

KoFFreaK wrote:

I hope this is an idea everyone can agree on, and become something greater in time.

There is no idea that will ever be agreed upon by everyone. Ever.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Ever since competitive play started, there has always been a controversial issue in this game, that when debated, goes almost nowhere...only that there are more to one side than the other.

So then why did you bring it up again? Are you so conceited that you thought you and your broken English was enough to unite both sides of this heated debate?

KoFFreaK wrote:

Being ITG, almost everyone uses the bar, but there is always the exception, a few who prefer not to use the bar. I know that a lot of you, because of the overwhelming debates, have grown to hate the other side(Even more the non-bar players, because a lot of non-bar players simply dont care, although not always true). Why is that?

I don't think most people who post on this site hate one side or the other. I seriously doubt even ten percent of the people who post on this site have even made a post in one of these threads and of those people I don't think ten percent actually care which play style people choose.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Why is it that most of these threads are started by non-bar players?

Because players who use the bar don't care if people do or do not use the bar. I wouldn't really care if Ryan started playing blindfolded. I would just get one place higher in every tournament. I wouldn't try to convince him to play without it.

KoFFreaK wrote:

After reading a couple threads, I came to the conclusion(and Im sure some of you did too) that its because non-bar players are over-shadowed by bar-player scores.

Everyone who gets bad scores is overshadowed by people who get good scores. That's what happens when you suck, regardless of whether or not you choose to suck.

KoFFreaK wrote:

People who choose not to use the bar get no credit even after all that training(no matter how fun it was in the process), that over time they have to use the bar to be noticed.

They don't have to use the bar to get noticed. All they have to do is get good scores. If someone can beat Ryan's Pandemonium score without the bar they will get credit. If someone can even get within 1% of Ryan's Pandemonium score they will be acknowledged.

KoFFreaK wrote:

I was checking groovestats, and no one can deny(not even non-bar players) that those are most impressive scores, that only with tons of practice can be achieved. But yet not all agree.

"No one can deny... But yet not all agree"
....
......
.......
what?

KoFFreaK wrote:

After checking that site out, I got this very simple idea, that still might change a lot of things around. Why not have a separate section with scores that's only a non-bar players scores? Something only dedicated to them, that even though the scores are going to be much lower, their skill will also be shown. There could be a "x1" section and a free mods non-bar section, shared a long with bar-player scores.

As has already been mentioned, if there were a no bar section then it would be too difficult to provide proof of the scores being obtained no bar. The only way you could prove it is by taking a video. This is not an option for many players and so would not be very fair. A lot of scores on groovestats are fake anyway.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Now, if this "section" does exist, and there are players on the high score, please direct me there and forget this whole thing, if not, lets do this

Most of the scores that would go in this "section" can be found in accomplishment threads on ddrfreak and itgfreak.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Ofcourse, if this starts, there will be very few people on there taking on all the spots(i.e. pickles), but that only enlarges the challenges and expectations for everyone else to work harder and be on that high score board.

Actually if one person has all the scores because they are the only person playing no bar then it does the opposite of "enlarging" the challenge. If many people compete then it makes it much mroe difficult and forces everyone to work harder to get scores. Sort of like the difference between doubles and singles on groovestats.

KoFFreaK wrote:

It will be something different, and not only will you have a choice to be in the score board, but there will be two options, each one with a different difficulty that broadens the game.

Everyone already has the option of being on the scoreboard. All they have to do is post a score. If you are talking about being number one then all they have to do is get a good score.

KoFFreaK wrote:

I hope this idea prevents those that dont use the bar to use it.

I hope that if you reply to my post you learn to speak English so I don't sit here scratching my head trying to understand what it is you are trying to tell me for ten minutes instead of immediately telling you why you are wrong.

KoFFreaK wrote:

Now, you know that this isnt a bar non-bar debate, but something that will stop the endless disputes and give the non-bar players a little credit to what they can do. So I really want to hear what you guys think about this, and move it forward. All I want is for you guys to forget all the shit that went on before on these debates and start from scratch if possible, because this will only keep going. Thank you.

Basically I think a seperate section on groovestats is a bad idea for the same reasons that Kiba DukAmok already mentioned, just to name a few. Playing no bar is just a way of handicapping yourself. The competitive scene for this game is focused on getting the highest score possible and that is all. If you can get the highest score you will receive praise regardless of your method of play. I don't think these debates need to start again and I sincerely hope that they don't keep going, though I'm sure as long as people like you are around they will.

AA Bob wrote:

A no-bar section would generate very little interest from the itg community. I'm sure some people would like to see it but groovestats is about the highest machine score and nothing else. They already have a difficult enough time making sure the scores that are listed now are legitimate, it would be nearly impossible to police a no-bar section.

AA Bob wrote:

What is the difference between playing no-bar and playing in sandals? One (and I hesitate to say this, as it might make me look like a no-bar purist, something I'm definitely not) requires significantly more balance and effort, the other doesn't. More importantly, some people may actually want a separate ranking for no-bar scores, but I don't think there's anybody who would have any use for a sandals ranking. This isn't rocket science.

The sandals example put forth by Cory is just hypothetical but if one makes the case for a no-bar section then I could easily make the same case for a section that includes only scores obtained on 1.5 hallway. There are others you could make a legitimate case for and at some point you need to draw the line. I don't think there is enough interest to warrant the work required to add a no-bar section to groovestats, though this is really up to the people who maintain that site. If you really care then make the site yourself, it's not rocket science.

AA Bob wrote:

Also - while you could say that using the bar is just limiting yourself, I say it's challenging yourself.

I think you mean not using the bar.

AA Bob wrote:

Sure, you won't score as well. Sure, you'd be stupid as hell to not use it on a difficult song in a tourney. But some people enjoy playing without the bar.

What is a difficult song according to you? I would say any player would be stupid as hell to not use the bar on any song if not using it would decrease their chance of winning in a tournament they wanted to win. I would also say that not using the bar on a song where using the bar would most likely increase your score is stupid as hell any time you are trying to get a good score but if I actually do say that then apparently I'm flaming people who don't use the bar.

AA Bob wrote:

KoFFreaK made it clear in his first post (and several others) that this is not a bar debate thread. But you guys are acting like it is. Seriously, did any of you even read the first post? It sure doesn't look like it. Here's this thread in a nutshell:

Quote:

KoFFreaK: "Hey, what if there was a separate ranking for no-bar players? Please don't turn this into a debate."
Everyone else: "HEY SHUTUP DON'T TELL US HOW TO PLAY BLAH BLAH SANDALS MIDGETS NAZIS"

Most of the responses you are trying to make fun of are actually trying to explain why exactly a no bar section on groovestats would not a be a good idea. The post that referenced Nazis actually has nothing to do with using the bar or itg at all. Did you even read the post?

AA Bob wrote:

He asked for our opinions. The opinion of many people who post on this site is that it would be a bad idea because of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. Why is it that just because people think it's a bad idea they are flaming him? If he/she only wanted positive feedback then he/she should have said so. These are the honest opinions of people who have already given their opinions on the subject numerous times.
_________________

0rion
Trick Member

Joined: 02 May 2005
Location: Kirby will explain it to you.

55.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject:

John Locke wrote:

KoFFreaK wrote:

Is making a thread like this automatically kill the thread starter, and everyone has a right to spam their thread until it gets locked?

You make it sound like I was specifically referring to you, Kiba. You hadn't crossed my mind when I said that, actually.

I do think AA Bob made some good points in defense of KoF's argument. Although as I said, I still think that it's just too soon to be discussing this, because as we've seen right now, people get way too angry way too quickly, and perfectly innocent (albeit impractical) suggestions are taken as grave insults to the sanctity of ITG gameplay. Legitimate points are debased, disregarded, or outright ignored in favor of finger-pointing and name-calling.

It's just too soon, and people are just too firmly locked in their own opinions right now for this to be talked about. This topic is as much proof of that as anything. I get what you're saying, KoF, but you should probably leave this one alone.
_________________

-Sir "O"
There's a little yellow bird on my avatar. (Brawl FC: 4640-1720-6690)

J. S. Mill
Maniac Member

Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York

56.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject:

KoFFreaK wrote:

"John Locke? what do you think of putting an extra section in groovestats for non-bar players, you know, just to make it a little more challenging for players who like to play no bar, and to see what they can accomplish?

You said that already. Then I said: what would make that any less arbitrary than a no shoes section?

Then you said nothing for five pages.
_________________

KoFFreaK
Trick Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: s0caL

57.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject:

squirrel_wrangler[spoink] wrote:

What are the reasons it would be a bad idea? I've yet to see these reasons. Is one of them "yeah lets make a sandal scoreboard too!"?

You quoted AA Bob on the last part in bold, but didnt comment on it, here it is again:

Quote:

You could ignore it. It wouldn't affect you in any way, at all, ever.

And thanks AA Bob for making my point readable to others.

J. S. Mill
Maniac Member

Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York

58.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject:

AA Bob wrote:

Yeah, the sandals require more balance and effort.

AA Bob wrote:

More importantly, some people may actually want a separate ranking for no-bar scores, but I don't think there's anybody who would have any use for a sandals ranking. This isn't rocket science.

I want a sandal ranking, I own in sandals.

AA Bob wrote:

Also - while you could say that using the bar is just limiting yourself, I say it's challenging yourself.

Yknow what else is challenging yourself? Stabbing yourself in the foot before you play. I say THAT's the REAL challenge. Let's make a seperate section for that.

AA Bob wrote:

Seriously, did any of you even read the first post?

Yes, then I replied. He hasn't responded for five pages.

AA Bob wrote:

Here's this thread in a nutshell

Apparently you missed the part where about ten people asked what makes no-bar any less arbitrary than sandals.

AA Bob wrote:

If there was a no-bar ranking on GS and you thought it was a dumb idea, then guess what? You could ignore it. It wouldn't affect you in any way, at all, ever.

"Hey guys, please comment on idea X"
"It's moronic"
"YOU COULD HAVE JUST IGNORED IT!!!1!"

Please continue to post frequently about not posting frequently.
_________________

J. S. Mill
Maniac Member

Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Location: New York, New York

59.

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject:

KoFFreaK wrote:

What are the reasons it would be a bad idea?

We've been shouting them at you for pages. It would be an artifical waste of time and effort for a totally arbitrary distinction.

EDIT: Aaron just patiently explained to you exactly why your idea is moronic, and you didn't even reply. He wrote about three pages and you responded with a sentence.
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