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Uiru
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Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: the floating castle of Newfoundland |
60.  Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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TIMELINE
-DDR 1st Mix had a mode where stepping where you shouldn't cost you a significant portion of your lifebar. This was considered stupid by all and scrapped, never to be heard from again. This was adapted into mines.
-DDR 2nd and below (I think) had the option for three and four arrow presses at once in Edit Mode. I'm not sure which had it and which didn't, but some did. Konami obviously had no intention of doing anything so foolish, so the mode was scrapped... until the Solo machines, where the location of up-left and up-right allowed for more than two arrows to be hit at a time a lot more sensibly than with the four-arrow setup. Both concepts were adapted into hands.
-DDR Disney Mix had a mode called Dance Magic, which was unwisely never heard from again, until it was adapted into ITG point for point.
-My current understanding of rolls is that they are 'step on one arrow lots'... while this assessment may be wrong, assuming that it isn't, rolls were adapted from the '5th Mix Freeze Arrows' (see CSFIL Speed for more information).
-I have no idea what Survival Mode in ITG is, but I'm sure it was adapted from something in DDR. Marathon, for instance, is simply Trick Oni to the extreme with a normal lifebar. (I will concede that I have seen a few interesting tricks with the gameplay there, hidden amongst mountains and mountains of bullshit. I liked the one where the stepzone went down the still arrows.)
~Uiru
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CoasterKrazy
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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| 61. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | TIMELINE
-DDR 1st Mix had a mode where stepping where you shouldn't cost you a significant portion of your lifebar. This was considered stupid by all and scrapped, never to be heard from again. This was adapted into mines.
-DDR 2nd and below (I think) had the option for three and four arrow presses at once in Edit Mode. I'm not sure which had it and which didn't, but some did. Konami obviously had no intention of doing anything so foolish, so the mode was scrapped... until the Solo machines, where the location of up-left and up-right allowed for more than two arrows to be hit at a time a lot more sensibly than with the four-arrow setup. Both concepts were adapted into hands.
-DDR Disney Mix had a mode called Dance Magic, which was unwisely never heard from again, until it was adapted into ITG point for point.
-My current understanding of rolls is that they are 'step on one arrow lots'... while this assessment may be wrong, assuming that it isn't, rolls were adapted from the '5th Mix Freeze Arrows' (see CSFIL Speed for more information).
-I have no idea what Survival Mode in ITG is, but I'm sure it was adapted from something in DDR. Marathon, for instance, is simply Trick Oni to the extreme with a normal lifebar. (I will concede that I have seen a few interesting tricks with the gameplay there, hidden amongst mountains and mountains of bullshit. I liked the one where the stepzone went down the still arrows.)
~Uiru |
Actually, they have rolls in Donkey Konga, which, If I recall correctly, came out way before rolls were implemented with ITG2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just another rip off they took?
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yyr
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Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Location: White Plains, NY |
| 62. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Hellacious wrote: | | As far as Roxor needing money, that's a load of crap. It costs Andamiro around $2,500 to make a Dedicated Cabinet. They then sell the ITG2 Dedicab to Roxor for $5,000. Roxor then sells the ITG2 Dedicab to an arcade or Distributor for $10,000. That's right around $5,000 profit for every Dedicated Cabinet in the US. Konami is sueing them because they are bringing in fat profits. |
Uh, last time I checked, companies have expenses. Like paying people's salaries. You don't think RoXoR has any employees? These people need to eat, too... just like you and me. And that's before considering the fact that they'll need money for the lawsuit. So I don't think it's out of line for them to ask a reasonable price for their products. $10k is actually not bad considering most of our favorite venues have made back their money already...and then some.
| El Mullet wrote: | | (1) Konami released DDR for the PC over three years ago. It was based off of 4th Mix, but had unique interface tweaks, song debuts never before seen on consoles up to that point, and the option to download American-exclusive characters. Despite all this, it never really took off. |
DDR PC was a failure for the exact same reason the domestic arcade versions were: there was something better out there already. DDR 1st USA and DDR USA didn't sell to arcades because 3rd through 5th MIXes were better by miles and available as cheap, bootleg versions. The alternatives to DDR PC were DWI, which was BOTH free AND had more recent, better songs available for it, and the more up-to-date console versions with better songlists. Yes, even the domestic ones.
I'm not saying that ITG for PC/Mac will be successful, or that it will be better than running Stepmania with all of the ITG2 content, but AT THE VERY LEAST, the new versions will be as good or better than the PS2 version that's already out there. Those who don't know of Stepmania and don't own a console might actually appreciate it a lot.
| orb wrote: | | The concept of 3-4 arrows at once, that's something new. |
Actually, Pump did that first...
| Uiru wrote: | | Roxor has already committed obvious crimes in front of their entire potential fanbase and then lied to them about it, and nobody blinked an eye. The real world is going to hit these people as though it were the moon, falling fro-. |
::whoosh:: ::slam:: FAILED. You fail this thread. Read the subject at the top of the screen and try again. There's alllllllllll-weighs-a-two-MAH-rowwwwww!
...FYI: rolls work like freezes, except if you don't press the arrow again, you lose it. In other words, if a certain amount of time passes without you pressing the arrow again, you get a Bad. Yeah, I don't think they're all that amazing, either. I do, however, like Survival Mode a lot. You get a timer. +0.2sec for Fantastic. No bonus/penalty for Excellent. Small time penalty for Great, and the penalty increases all the way down the line. You get more time at the start of each song, but nonetheless, the only way to pass the course is to hit mostly Fantastics. This is quite a bit different from Oni mode, where all you have to do to pass is keep the combo going. Oh, and you have to deal with the crazy scripted mods, too!
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Last edited by yyr on Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total |
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NSMH
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: San Diego |
| 63. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | | -My current understanding of rolls is that they are 'step on one arrow lots'... while this assessment may be wrong, assuming that it isn't, rolls were adapted from the '5th Mix Freeze Arrows' (see CSFIL Speed for more information). |
Freeze rolls are basically rolls that you have to press above a certain speed to keep it from deactivating. (For an example, look at Robotix Hard The long purple hold is a freeze roll. And yes, it is innovative.
| Uiru wrote: | | -I have no idea what Survival Mode in ITG is, but I'm sure it was adapted from something in DDR. Marathon, for instance, is simply Trick Oni to the extreme with a normal lifebar. (I will concede that I have seen a few interesting tricks with the gameplay there, hidden amongst mountains and mountains of bullshit. I liked the one where the stepzone went down the still arrows.) |
Survival Mode is like a normal marathon course, except you have a countdown timer, and you must be accurate in your steps to gain more time to survive the song. It's freakin difficult, considering fantastics and excellents only give you more time, but greats and below hurt your time meter. That may not make sense, but once again this feature is slightly innovative.
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Travissssssssss
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Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| 64. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Uiru wrote: | | ITG is better wrote: | | Who are the fanboys again? |
You're right. I should reg "DDR is better" at ITGFreak and take up the cause there. Because THAT wouldn't get me banned.
~Uiru |
Uhh, a username saying something is better doesn't mean I think soething else is bad. If you were to make a username like DDR is better, they wouldn't care. However if you started pulling poopy out your buttocks just looking for ways to drag down a game you haven't even played, then I'm sure you'd be banned pretty quick.
EDIT: These filters suck =\ |
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ColorOfSakura
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Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: The user formerly known as Zajitarrius |
| 65. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| orb wrote: |
Wait wait wait.
Nothing? Nothing at all? |
Pretty much nothing completely innovative has come from ITG itself sans Rolls.
| Quote: | ITG may be a blatant ripoff but let's at least give it some credit.
The concept of 3-4 arrows at once, that's something new. Same goes for rolls? Sure, they didn't make a big thing out of them, but at least it's something new. Survival mode is new as well and it helps improve accuracy |
Pump It Up did that way before ITG existed.
Handplants are common on Crazy, Nightmare and FreeStyle in PIU. Even DDR did a couple of handplants. Uh La La La is the most famous one.
Rolls are SIMILAR to PIU's Freeze Arrow system, except PIU's Freezes count for multiple steps where as Rolls do not.
And yes, Pump did have a "Survival" mode before ITG2 came out. However, I am not sure how it worked exactly as I haven't played it.
And don't give me the arguement about how ITG's stepcharts are "innovative". PIU has them beat on that too, sorry. Seriously. Play "Join The Party" on Crazy and you'll see what I mean. (Hint: It has a central freeze arrow that lasts the duration of the song)
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DDRNemesis
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 67. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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As toady pointed out, almost everyone overlooked the fact that it doesn't say this will be sold, only "made available." Let's assume it IS sold; I think it'd be a good idea if Roxor had something that was like "hey send us a picture of yourself holding ITG PS2 (or something like that) and we'll give you [insert cool deal here]." If it turns out that this won't be sold, well, then more power to Roxor I guess.
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orb
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Joined: 20 Nov 2002
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| 68. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: |
What will RoXoR flip around next? |
The name of their company! 
Oh wait.
(Hint: "RoXoR" is a palindrome) |
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Synaesthesia
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Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Location: Crushing all deceivers, smashing non-believers |
| 69. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for explaining that, bro... oh wait...
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arnoct
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada |
| 70. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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And, now...
| Uiru wrote: | TIMELINE
-DDR 1st Mix had a mode where stepping where you shouldn't cost you a significant portion of your lifebar. This was considered stupid by all and scrapped, never to be heard from again. This was adapted into mines. |
If I'm to understand you correctly, basically what you're saying is DDR 1st mix had a "Flash Flash Revolution" mode, where pressing the wrong button will make you lose your life. This is nothing like mines, where stepping on them at a specific time will make you lose a life. I also remember when mines were first introduced into stepmania by Glenn--if my memory serves me correctly, this was far before ITG was even thought of. If it was copying a feature of DDR, Glenn would have said so, because at that time Stepmania was primarily a DDR simulator (and still is) and new features usually were either from DDR or completely new. If stepmania was realistically ripping off DDR 1st mixes' mode, then wouldn't you think they'd make it more faithful to the original?
(Updated the post to make it slightly clearer.)
| Quote: | | -DDR 2nd and below (I think) had the option for three and four arrow presses at once in Edit Mode. I'm not sure which had it and which didn't, but some did. Konami obviously had no intention of doing anything so foolish, so the mode was scrapped... until the Solo machines, where the location of up-left and up-right allowed for more than two arrows to be hit at a time a lot more sensibly than with the four-arrow setup. Both concepts were adapted into hands. |
Hay guys ddr 2nd and below had a bug that itg thought was awesome and they ripped off!!! I sware its true!!!
In all fairness, if they actually did ripoff a feature from someone, they more likely got hands from PiU, which, if you're not following, is distributed by the same company as ITG2. However, 3-and-4 step jumps are the kind of things that people have been talking about wanting in DDR for ages, and the fact that DDR had a "feature" which was more likely a bug than anything is irrelevant to whether ITG has them or not.
| Quote: | | -DDR Disney Mix had a mode called Dance Magic, which was unwisely never heard from again, until it was adapted into ITG point for point. |
I'll give you this one; although ITGs is slightly different in the idea that it doesn't involve characters. But yeah, I agree with you, it's dance magic (as a matter of fact, that's what the stepmania feature was called :\)
| Quote: | | -My current understanding of rolls is that they are 'step on one arrow lots'... while this assessment may be wrong, assuming that it isn't, rolls were adapted from the '5th Mix Freeze Arrows' (see CSFIL Speed for more information). |
"Hay guys I have no idea what I'm talking about now so I'm going to make shit up in the hopes that I sound smarter."
Rolls are always using two feet, and they basically act like a cross between a 16th (8th?) note stream and a freeze. They are nothing like the 5th mix 'freezes' because--ohmigod--the 5th mix ones used one foot and weren't special in any way. I bet you're going to argue now that freeze crossovers are ripping off normal crossovers because DDR has normal crossovers.
| Quote: |
-I have no idea what Survival Mode in ITG is, but I'm sure it was adapted from something in DDR. Marathon, for instance, is simply Trick Oni to the extreme with a normal lifebar. (I will concede that I have seen a few interesting tricks with the gameplay there, hidden amongst mountains and mountains of bullshit. I liked the one where the stepzone went down the still arrows.)
~Uiru |
I actually laughed out loud when I read this. Since you normally don't listen to anyone, I'll put this in large text so this can hopefully be drilled int your head--
DO NOT TALK ABOUT CRAP THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.
Survival mode is an incredibly innovative (albeit difficult) mode which has no equivelant in DDR. None. At all. Case closed.
Also, while there are things in ITG that may be borrowed from DDR, there are other things ITG does that DDR doesn't. For example--
- Mines (which are not the same as 'FFR syndrome')
- Changing mods during courses
- Rolls
- 3D Arrows (which, I admit, is somewhat ricetacular, but the ITG arrows look a lot better than DDR's 2D ones)
Don't get me wrong. I am not an ITG fanboy. I repeat--I AM NOT AN ITG FANBOY. I play DDR alot more than I play ITG. As a matter of fact, I just ordered Ultramix 3 (which, because it's not japanese, also sucks according to you.) But Uiru, you have to realize that until you actually
PLAY THE GAME
you won't be taken seriously here. And I don't mean play one or two songs. Play it for long enough to get a real opinon, and learn what the frick you're talking about.
In closing, GTFO
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/robodex two thousand and five
/#bemani on irc.dynastynet.net -- talk about bemani stuff.
Last edited by arnoct on Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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AceJay
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Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Location: Princeton, NJ |
| 71. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| arnoct wrote: | | If I'm to understand you correctly, basically what you're saying is DDR 1st mix had a "Flash Flash Revolution" mode, where pressing the wrong button will make you lose your life. This is nothing like mines, where stepping on them at a specific time will make you lose a life. I also remember when mines were first introduced into stepmania by Glenn--if my memory serves me correctly, this was far before ITG was even thought of. Sry frend. |
ITG WAS BORN OF STEPMANIA, NOOB.
YOU GTFO.
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Alezay
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Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: Looking At The Sky..... |
| 72. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: | There are fanboys on both sides in this thread, but I have a hard time dealing with ITG fanboys more than DDR ones.
First, ITGFreak.com, it doesn't have a "DDR Section"
DDRFreak.com, does have an "ITG Section"
ITGFreak.com sounds like a ripoff of DDRFreak.com if you ask me.
Now can ITG fanboys and makers really come up with own ideas? So far nothing in ITG's name has been very original.
RoXoR seems to be a flip flopper. First they say everything was fine with Konami when they came out with ITG1. Now they freely distribute simfiles but might start charging people for those exact same files.
What will RoXoR flip around next? |
Right. Let's just completly forget about the 50+ arrow modifiers. Oh, and do your homework before you speak. RoXoR doesn't distribute simfiles. The players who made MP3 recordings off of the machine and made videos to step the sims, and the people that ripped the music and data off of the PS2 disc are the ones distributing simfiles. RoXoR isn't. Maybe they're trying to milk a dry cow by selling ITG for PC as "official" simfiles, but we're not to that point yet.
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arnoct
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Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada |
| 73. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Err, yeah. I know. That probably came out wrong, what I meant was that mines were invented originally as an innovative feature to stepmania (which made its way into ITG) and not as a way to rip off a mode in DDR. If it was, Glenn would have probably mentioned which DDR feature it was based off of, since at the time Stepmania was a DDR simulator more than anything (and still is.)
[edit] That was in response to AceJay, btw.
Oh, to the person who said DDRFreak has an ITG section but ITGFreak doesn't have a DDR Section, there's a reason for that. DDRFreak was originally made to be a DDR site, but when ITG came out it started becoming more of a general music game site (note the references to guitar hero, beatmania, etc in the site.) ITGFreak is more specialized in the fact that it's about ITG. You're really comparing two different things :S
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/#bemani on irc.dynastynet.net -- talk about bemani stuff. |
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Travissssssssss
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Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| 74. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DDRNemesis wrote: | There are fanboys on both sides in this thread, but I have a hard time dealing with ITG fanboys more than DDR ones.
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Really? I see a lot more of "ITG SUX LOL" than I do "DDR SUX". Most of the people that prefer ITG have played both ITG and DDR for a while, but most of the people I see bashing ITG have probably played it once or not at all.
Also most of the people that prefer ITG don't bash DDR, even though they could.
| Quote: | | -DDR 1st Mix had a mode where stepping where you shouldn't cost you a significant portion of your lifebar. This was considered stupid by all and scrapped, never to be heard from again. This was adapted into mines. |
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Man, why do you still try? Have you ever played any other rhythm games before? |
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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 75. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| arnoct wrote: | | In all fairness, if they actually did ripoff a feature from someone, they more likely got hands from PiU, which, if you're not following, is distributed by the same company as ITG2. |
And that particular point of information is pretty much meaningless.
Also, while PIU did it first more than likely, I'll point to the Solo mixes for Konami-official 3+ step patterns. | Alezay wrote: | | Right. Let's just completly forget about the 50+ arrow modifiers. |
Most of which were in Stepmania before ITG. | arnoct wrote: | | Oh, to the person who said DDRFreak has an ITG section but ITGFreak doesn't have a DDR Section, there's a reason for that. DDRFreak was originally made to be a DDR site, but when ITG came out it started becoming more of a general music game site (note the references to guitar hero, beatmania, etc in the site.) |
That wasn't really because of ITG - we gave some coverage to other games here and there before ITG's popularity, but I would attribute it more to the decline in DDR's popularity. I mean, why would we start covering Beatmania more as a response to ITG's success? That doesn't make sense. | ITG is better wrote: | | Also most of the people that prefer ITG don't bash DDR, even though they could. |
My own anecdotal experience says it's otherwise. I don't see a lot of DDR people bashing ITG. I do see a few notable ones with particularly loud mouths, but on the whole, I think the mass public just really doesn't care a whole lot. It's a really really stupid turf war, and a lot of fights escalate simply because people on one side assume they're being attacked when they're not. For example, calling people Konami-/DDR-/Roxor-/ITG-fanboys implies a derogatory sense usually. I may apply the term, but I'm not specifically against Roxor or for Konami. I get sick of seeing people like PedanticOmbudsman and Uiru injecting their arguments into damn near every post they make though, and that's what fuels this war more than anything.
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orb
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Joined: 20 Nov 2002
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| 76. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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The fact that those mods were in SM first doesn't make much difference does it? The whole point is that ITG is based on SM and SM devs support ITG (AFAIK). So.. the point is that those mods are in ITG, and not DDR. Please don't say that "because it was in SM, that it doesn't count."
Okay, that's about what I wanted to say. Carry on  |
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Travissssssssss
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Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| 77. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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This is my last post in this thread I promise. =)
I don't think people are claiming ITG to be a really new and innovative game. They just have fun playing it. Roxor took a game and added to it, and everything else aside, some people enjoy the game. |
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AceJay
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Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Location: Princeton, NJ |
| 78. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | Alezay wrote: | | Right. Let's just completly forget about the 50+ arrow modifiers. |
Most of which were in Stepmania before ITG. |
Weren't they all in SM, just not selectable?
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Cutriss
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| 79. Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| AceJay â¶â wrote: | | Cutriss wrote: | | Alezay wrote: | | Right. Let's just completly forget about the 50+ arrow modifiers. |
Most of which were in Stepmania before ITG. |
Weren't they all in SM, just not selectable? |
That may be. I'm not really all that up on the history of SM. I started with DWI myself. | ITG is better wrote: | | I don't think people are claiming ITG to be a really new and innovative game. |
Well, some are, but that aside... | ITG is better wrote: | | They just have fun playing it. Roxor took a game and added to it, and everything else aside, some people enjoy the game. |
And *that* is the most important part, and one of the best posts in this thread.
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