Reviving DDR

Boochypa · Trick Member Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Location: VA Tech

Contrary to what seems to be your belief, the vast majority of the 9-11 difficulty charts in ITG aren't needlessly difficult, and most people who play the game find them quite fun. I have more fun with them than the DDR 9s because most of the "hardest" charts in DDR are only so because they're stupid (HVAM, Daikenkai, etc..) or just plain wrong (Burning Heat, Bag, Captain Jack, etc..). ITG has stepcharts that are legitimately difficult while fitting real songs well. (Sorry, Max 300 isn't a real song).

lolinternet · Trick Member Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Location: Woodhaven, MI

Synaesthesia · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject:

ColorOfSakura · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject:

thisismyoldusername:P · Trick Member Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Location: Butt Town

Synaesthesia · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject:

lolinternet · Trick Member Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Location: Woodhaven, MI

Threadstopper! · Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject:

This thread was meant to discuss ways to re-ignite interest in DDR. The original topic seems to have burnt out. It turned into another tired old DDR/ITG fanboy battle.

Lock request.

lolinternet · Trick Member Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Location: Woodhaven, MI

thisismyoldusername:P · Trick Member Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Location: Butt Town

No, I'm requesting a lock as well. Everything is pretty much covered. ITG is the new big deal and DDR still has its own quality. Anything other than that has just been a bunch of fanboy nagging. I'm through with arguing. Play what you like to play and leave everyone else alone.

There's been no flaming, but there's no longer a point to this discussion, either.
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Joel Stud?! · Trick Member Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Location: The ILSTU

No everythings not coverd. This is the first good debate I have seen on DDR Freak between DDR and ITG. The truth is, both are good games. I do perfer DDR, but ITG has its place. Allow me to elaborate.

DDR is a fun game, everyone here know and most people love, which focuses on every difficulty of the game. The developers attempt to create hard songs for every player, however in recent years the gamers have found themselves too good for DDR's 10's, and thus required more attention. That's where ITG comes in.

Itg breaks down the door with their game, offering a new and challenging take on the dance game genre, incliduing higher difficulties, hands, mines, etc. Fanboys complain, others rejoice. It's pretty much split down the middle.

I'll admit, I was really excited about the console release. I hadn't played it at an arcade before, and so I awaited the day I would purchase it. This finally happened in August. I took it home, popped it in and began to play. Usually when I pop in DDR my first problem is what song to choose. Many sound interesting. However, with ITG, it was what song didn't sound horrible. I finnally saw Mellow, which I thought had a catchy tune and fun demeanor. I chose it. I played this song, which was not much more difficult than a DDR 8, and thought to myself "Seems the rating match up!" So I ran to the nines. I had problems with Lemming's on the Run, and thus migrated back to Spacekatz, and played Land of the Rising Sun. After a play through that, Da Roots, and The Game I was ready to try out one of the tens. I still couldn't easily pass all of the DDR tens, so I was a bit worried. But I played Queen of Light and got through most of it. Sadly the tricky freeze crossovers screwed me up and I failed. So after that I was done. I didn't like it all that much.

Now I pop in ITG when I need a challenge, when I feel like working myself too hard, or when I feel like a run around a Spacekatz song or Utopia. But really, I wasn't impressed with what it had to offer one anything other than expert charts. The hard charts were designed EXACTLY like DDR's were. Repetitive streams of 1/8th notes. Not to mention that unlike DDR, the medium, easy, and novice songs had completely horrible step charts, which were nota worth my time.

I soon began trying out the expert songs, most of which I wouldn't consider music (especially Pandy, Vertex, The Begininning, etc.). They were horrible songs for listening, and reminded me too much of the Max songs (which I didn't ever care for, minues Super-Max-Me Mix). I finally settled on songs like Romeo and Juli-8. It was a fun song, with fun steps. However, it was stil repetitive. As I soon came to learn all ITG songs were. And the worst part was instead of fun 1/8th note runs, or other usual rhythyms switched back and forth between, as on DDR, one pattern would continue for an entire segment of the music. Repetition was the game. You don't like DDR's overuse of 1/8 note runs. It's the same thing in hard songs, and in expert songs it's just 1/16th note runs instead. Or perhaps you'd perfer treatment such as repeated groupings of 3 1/16th notes (triplets!!!). Over and over again for an entire song. Or you could kill of your right leg on Utopia's useless single-foot chain of steps, which would be much more fun and suitable if it required the use of two feet.

And perhaps the worst part is that, guess what, mines and hands are not included on non-expert charts. I thought that the game had greatly designed step-charts? Well, only for expert songs. And that's questionable (I'll give you Oasis, QoL, and Romeo). But the charts for anything hard or below were practically ignored. ITG well never get a beginner fanbase, simply because for anyone who hasn' already bored themselves with DDR, it's not fun. I want hands in hard charts like Da Roots or Land of the Rising Sun. I want mines in Mellow, and give me more in Don't Promise Me. Those charts are useless. The songs are fun, but the charts are very lacking.

I'd much perfer DDR. I might not wear myself out as much, but step charts like Captain Jack's ~Grandale Mix~, Cartoon Heroes, Mobo Moga, Burning Heat (I know, I know, but it's still fun!!!!), Kakumei, Abyss, Can't Stop Falling in Love ~Speed Mix~, and more. They're fun to play, not just challenging.

Oh, and as far as Healing Vision goes, at least they realized that they could change the number of eighth notes in a run, use quarter note streams when it fit the song, and slow the song down, keeping good steps, fiting the song.

I play ITG. I own it. So don't say I'm a friggin' fanboy. I perfer one game, you perfer another. Sadly it's people like you, who whore on songs for their difficulty, who are causing many others to tire of the game. It's not just a giant competition to 4Star Vertex^2 before everyone else ya know.

thisismyoldusername:P · Trick Member Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Location: Butt Town

OMG PERRFECT!!!! Way to revive this thread, as well as the debate!
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DeeEckzWhy! · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject:

You know, all you people bashing DDR should just shut the fuck up because without Dance Dance Revolution, there would be NO In the Groove.

And whoever said Konami doesn't cater to our interests... HELLO EXTREME 2!!!
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lolinternet · Trick Member Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Location: Woodhaven, MI

DeeEckzWhy! · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject:

ÇÉ¥ÊÊÉs · Trick Member Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Location: atlanta

GANGURO.luv · Basic Member Joined: 25 Nov 2005 Location: Richmond, VA

Synaesthesia · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject:

SafeTinspector · Basic Member Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Location: Michigan

I've never played the game in an arcade (I'm an older fella, and look silly doing such stuff)
But it seems that there are plenty of these games coming out for the home market each year.

Perhaps I've missed the point?

Also, ITG requires a pad I don't have, so I consider it a moot point.... for the moment. I do find it interesting and would love to try it!
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~^-^~ · Basic Member Joined: 14 Oct 2005

In the Groove is a great idea that is littered with too many problems for me to even begin to explain, but I'll try to.

Reviving the dance game genre is something that is needed. Face it, even for me, a huge DDR fan, the game is three years old -- it's showing its age. Naturally I wanted a new arcade experience, but when ITG came out I was sorely, sorely disappointed.

Look; I'm someone who analyzes DDR charts. I've made countless DDR charts for nDDRo ( http://nddro.i-xcell.com/ ) under the alias "lrxevan." I know my way, inside-out, around a DDR pad. Ask anyone who knows stepcharts and they'll tell you I know my poopy.

So when I played ITG, I was very disappointed -- ITG understands a few concepts, but is missing a ton of key ones. The fact that 90% of the songs patterns look like this (seriously):

is a problem enough in itself. As a matter of fact, I can't believe no one's noticed this yet: at least sixty percent of the songs recycle the same pattern in different rhythms (be it 16th notes, sorrow-patterns, or eighth-note runs). In addition, most songs face left (variations on the pattern:

) about 80% of the time. The one song that changed things up a little, if I recall, was Infection on Hard mode, which faces right 90% of the time. This does not solve the problem

Over all, the patterns just lack variety. I'm sure we could all argue this until we're blue in the face, but allow me to point something out: when ITG fans argue that ITG offers more 'variety' than DDR, they say it's because DDR only offers simple eighth-note runs for the most part. And this is true -- DDR's charts are heavily eighth-run intensive. However, I think these fans are missing the point. Rhythmic variation is not enough to keep players interested: you need to combine rhythmic variation with ARROW PATTERN variation, which ITG fails at miserably -- yes, there are a variety of patterns in rhythm, mostly involving superfulous 16th runs that follow the fastest possible musical element (not a great formula as-is), but where are my patterns? Where is my Rhythm and Police? WHere is my Exotic Ethnic? Where is my PSMO, or my PSM/PS for that matter? And where are my Spin the Disc?

The experience given to me by In the Groove can be summed up entirely by playing Electro Tuned on Standard at 300% speed.

In The Groove is an easy attraction for those who don't know stepcharts well, because to them, arrows are arrows, and ITG offers more of them at higher speeds. More arrows in a smaller amount of time is equal to more difficulty to most people, because they don't know what a hard chart really offers. Want to know something? In my opinion, Exotic Ethnic is far, far more difficult than any ITG 10, and in many cases, ITG 11s.

Yes, the implimentation of Stepmania's mines and freeze rolls were clever additions to the formula, and yes, a jump in difficulty was necessary. However, I do not believe that In the Groove successfully integrated a difficulty increase. They are relying on their players not knowing a good step chart any better than they do, which is a shame, because ITG was a good idea from conception, and is not relying on the ignorance of its players to fuel its popularity. Most people just judge how good a stepchart is on how much they like the song they're playing, anyway: Hell, look at Tournamix or OSC. I entered POP from NSYNC for OSC4. Want to bet I lose miserably? Want to bet you already know who you're not voting for, without even seeing the chart yet?

Some food for thought.