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Cutriss
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Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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140.  Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I blame Sony and their oh-so-wondrous quality assurance and their reliable marketing department.
The math is easy. 1000 / refresh rate = pixel change time.
Of course, since LCDs don't use electron guns to redraw the screen, refresh rate doesn't apply to them, so you have to use floor functions to compare the performance requirements. At a constant 60 FPS, you're drawing a frame every 16.6 milliseconds, assuming vertical sync and full-frame drawing, so your LCD needs to have a pixel change time of 16.6 ms or less to prevent showing ghosting.
And what do you mean by "blur (not ghosting)"? What exactly are you talking about? If you're saying that the images were blurring and not ghosting, then you're talking about an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with draw time.
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CNLohr
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Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| 141. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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LCD's: Heck no. Most people think graphical lag doesn't matter in DDR but it really does. While you judge your timing based on sound (or are supposed to) most people also gauge their timing on the visual location of the arrows. Also, LCD does have the issue of giving a ghost appearance, at very high arrow speeds, you can see where the arrows were. Plasma displays don't have as serious of an issue there, but they fail very quickly in comparison, and have serious burn in problems. While the exact display has not been decided, we have it down to two different CRTs.
I can't really coment much on the Backgrounds at this time. |
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lolinternet
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Location: Woodhaven, MI |
| 142. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | I blame Sony and their oh-so-wondrous quality assurance and their reliable marketing department.
The math is easy. 1000 / refresh rate = pixel change time.
Of course, since LCDs don't use electron guns to redraw the screen, refresh rate doesn't apply to them, so you have to use floor functions to compare the performance requirements. At a constant 60 FPS, you're drawing a frame every 16.6 milliseconds, assuming vertical sync and full-frame drawing, so your LCD needs to have a pixel change time of 16.6 ms or less to prevent showing ghosting.
And what do you mean by "blur (not ghosting)"? What exactly are you talking about? If you're saying that the images were blurring and not ghosting, then you're talking about an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with draw time. |
Like I said some people can see it, and some people can't. I can see blur on any LCD regardless of response time, but it's non existant on a CRT. Things just "blur" when in motion on any LCD.  They get fuzzy edges etc |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 143. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| lolinternet wrote: | | Like I said some people can see it, and some people can't. I can see blur on any LCD regardless of response time, but it's non existant on a CRT. Things just "blur" when in motion on any LCD. They get fuzzy edges etc |
Fuzzy edges are likely because of signal degredation on the cable going to the panel, or possibly noise inside your chassis getting in the signal. That has nothing to do with pixel change rates. It's also possible you might be running in a non-native resolution and your monitor is trying to do some stupid sort of interlacing.
Try DVI and make sure you're running in a native resolution (or disable image stretching).
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lolinternet
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Location: Woodhaven, MI |
| 144. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | lolinternet wrote: | | Like I said some people can see it, and some people can't. I can see blur on any LCD regardless of response time, but it's non existant on a CRT. Things just "blur" when in motion on any LCD. They get fuzzy edges etc |
Fuzzy edges are likely because of signal degredation on the cable going to the panel, or possibly noise inside your chassis getting in the signal. That has nothing to do with pixel change rates. It's also possible you might be running in a non-native resolution and your monitor is trying to do some stupid sort of interlacing.
Try DVI and make sure you're running in a native resolution (or disable image stretching). |
Nah that's not it. Everything would blur (ie. everything would sorta fuzz over) when things were in motion. It looked fine when everything was still. This is blurring, not ghosting. I used DVI also, I can't imagine using a non digital connection to a LCD considering the color reproduction and black levels of a LCD already isn't all that hot.
And I was definitely running at the panel's native res  Thanks though
The LCD I bought was a Sony HS94S/P I believe. I bought this over a similar Dell or Samsung for color reproduction, black levels, and light bleed - little did I know that every LCDs blur like hell So I returned it and bought a NEC FP2141 instead. Awesome monitor. Just absolutely amazing. Blows any LCD out of the water.
Many many people simply cannot play on a LCD when gaming because of this "blurring" that they see. I'm not quite sure what causes it or why some people can see it and some can't, but it's definitely there.
I still use a LCD daily - my i9300 has a nice 17" widescreen lcd (1920x1200 native res) that's absolutley awesome but not so hot for gaming. I still use the CRT for competitive gaming and the notebook for everything else 
Sorry to derail the thread. |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 145. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| lolinternet wrote: | | Many many people simply cannot play on a LCD when gaming because of this "blurring" that they see. I'm not quite sure what causes it or why some people can see it and some can't, but it's definitely there. |
I think your statements are largely anecdotal, sorry. I know LCDs had a history of a bad rap from FPS players (which extended it unfairly to all games), but that problem is surmountable now. Occam's Razor says that, given the choice between you having superhuman visual processing abilities and just having a crappy video setup, the video setup is the more likely of the two.
I use a Dell 2001FP and it works fantastically. No blurriness, no ghosting.
And let's be clear - ghosting is the term for pixel change time lagging behind frame times. Blurring would be present without any motion (though I can think of circumstances when it would only evidence itself in motion). I'm not really sure why you keep using different terms.
Forgive me if it seems like I'm talking down to you, but when you pull up numbers like 4ms for pixel change speeds, I have to question.
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lolinternet
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Location: Woodhaven, MI |
| 146. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | lolinternet wrote: | | Many many people simply cannot play on a LCD when gaming because of this "blurring" that they see. I'm not quite sure what causes it or why some people can see it and some can't, but it's definitely there. |
I think your statements are largely anecdotal, sorry. I know LCDs had a history of a bad rap from FPS players (which extended it unfairly to all games), but that problem is surmountable now. Occam's Razor says that, given the choice between you having superhuman visual processing abilities and just having a crappy video setup, the video setup is the more likely of the two.
I use a Dell 2001FP and it works fantastically. No blurriness, no ghosting.
And let's be clear - ghosting is the term for pixel change time lagging behind frame times. Blurring would be present without any motion (though I can think of circumstances when it would only evidence itself in motion). I'm not really sure why you keep using different terms.
Forgive me if it seems like I'm talking down to you, but when you pull up numbers like 4ms for pixel change speeds, I have to question. |
Awesome. Head on over to the hardforums or something (where i've posted now for 3-4 years) and you'll find plenty of threads where people doggy about the "blur" that LCDs produce, so it's not just me.
Also, I am a huge a/v nerd - I just recently converted 3/4th of my basement to a Home Theater room that I built myself, and I'm really anal about video quality, especially color reproduction/black levels.
The reason I consider them two different things is that I can see the difference between the two. For example I could not see any ghosting where there normally would have been on a crappier display (for example, on an overhead name in DAoC or WoW - overhead names in MMORPGS are notorious for making ghosting extremely obvious), but everything still blurred when in motion. I can equate it to say, taking your glasses off when you turn your head and then putting them back on when you stop turning.
Seriously, head on over to the display section of the forums and you'll see I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. I'm waiting for SED (seeing as OLED isnt as promising as it once was) sets before I buy a new display |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 147. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Heh. I stopped reading [H] long ago when I couldn't afford to keep up with the curve. It was too painful.
And I also did go over there earlier this year before I bought my monitor, since I knew that HardGawd opinions were way more valuable than any other I would find. You'll see that my monitor is the one they all endorse for gaming rigs.
Yeah, we've sidetracked this thread too much. 
Here's an ontopic question - will the DTX cabinet have external display hookups for performance shows?
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CNLohr
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Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| 148. Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, but we're not sure if it'll be VGA or S-Video yet. We're leaning toward a S-Video jack. (Technichal reasons, not based on demand) |
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DDRtists
Trick Member
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Bakersfield, CA |
| 149. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a good game, it will be cool for me as i know Jihnsius in person and have played DDR with him many times =D and he has two songs on it
I also found a mistake on this site, under Jihnsius artists page it says:
Featured Track(s): Wish, Futurescope.EXE...
but under Tracklist it says:
Futurescope.EXE Kernel340
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Gerk
Trick Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Location: Lemoore, CA |
| 150. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:53 am Post subject: |
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That's because he = Kernel340. If we tried to keep it a secret, well...it'd leak anyway, right?
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ch
Trick Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Location: IN UR FORUM POSTING ON UR THRED |
| 151. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: |
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lol, dj slash. sounds like a good set of tunes you got here.
what regions are you going to be releasing in? i assume mostly usa, but your cabinets are built in china, so will there be units in east asia as well?
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Edible Bondage Tape
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Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 152. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:22 am Post subject: |
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if you want a full grey black grey 5 mS is the standard transition time so for a grey grey tranisiton 4 mS would be doable easy
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DJ Kakarotto
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Joined: 18 Jul 2003
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| 153. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Jihnsius is Kernel340. Were you there last year at that Bakersfield tournament? I was there.
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DDRtists
Trick Member
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Bakersfield, CA |
| 154. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| DJ Kakarotto wrote: | | Jihnsius is Kernel340. Were you there last year at that Bakersfield tournament? I was there. |
What one? The DDR Mario one? And how long has he gone under that name? I only thought i was Jihnsuis  well and Jinx, only cause he has all the high scores here  |
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Phrekwenci
Administrator
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Location: New York, NY |
| 155. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Many of the artists going under a few aliases. One in particular is Captain T.
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trayball2k
Trick Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Location: Bronx, New York |
| 156. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| CNLohr wrote: | Trayball: This thread is solely about the arcade release. We do not want to discuss console releases.
neothe0ne: That is why we will not be selling units off the bat. We want to catch any obvious problems. As you pointed out: accidents happen in engineering. No amount of work can completly prevent them. |
O.k. Please email me if you guys consider a PS2 or PS3 release. Thanks.
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Tsuri
Trick Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
| 157. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| lolinternet wrote: | | TehWhack wrote: | This is the problem with the DDR/ITG/PIU community; a lot of the people here don't realise the general population does not have the same music tastes as us.
A common sign of ignorance in our community is people saying "why are these songs in this game?" when talking about licenced songs. In reality, you may not like it, but most of the people in the population like it. When people first step onto the pad for the first time they want songs they are familiar to. I know from experience that over 80% of the people I get to try DDR can not recognize a single song and instantly lose interest in the game. To put things in perspective, I've made over 30 people try DDR.
To make my point clearer think of it this way:
0-0.2% of the population has heard of Digital explosion and enjoys their music.
25-50% of the population has heard of the Black Eyed Peas and enjoys their music.
Saying DDR/ITG/PIU/ETC. should have music that just fits for your music tastes is just being selfish and ignorant.
About the cost-effective issue, people have misconceived this as well. Licensing a billboard top 40 song for a DJ in a club is relatively cheap. I imagine that doing this for a game is also a lot more cheap than people see it to be. In the end it's a good investment.
An example for this is Dancing Stage being much more popular than DDR. Dancing Stage has quite a few licensed songs and I believe they completely overwehlm DDR's popularity and profit. |
So what artists and genres would you suggest?
Rap, hip hop, alternative, etc? Is that what you want?
Seriously, look at what's popular right now.
Top 10:
Ashlee Simpson
Rod Stewart
Martina McBride
Nickelback
Stevie Wonder
Bun-B (what the hell?)
Depeche Mode
The Black Eyed Peas
Alicia Keys
Kayne West
Do you want those in ITG or DTX? Honestly? Nobody will play those songs, and since nobody plays them, nobody will be attracted to the machine by hearing them. The only way they will be introduced to those songs on the machine is when they play theirselves. And even then there are only gonna be a handful of licensed songs, making sure the novelty of playing whatever's popular at the time will get old really fast.
When's the last time you ever heard anybody playing Torn on an ITG2 cab? I've never seen anyone play that song, and it was a pretty damn popular song back in it's day.
Not to mention the music on the Billboard Top 10 isn't exactly known for it's timelessness - most of it gets old pretty fast as opposed to genuinely good music that keeps most players coming back.
Also, DDR/ITG has never even came close to fitting my musical tastes. My musical tastes wouldn't fit in with a dancing game at all. I am heavy into classical and metal right now, both of which I wouldn't ever want to hear while playing ITG. Of course remixed classical pieces are awesome |
I would be less interested in playing crap I've heard a billion times already. When I play any dance or music game I tend to go for songs that don't sound like the same crap over and over... in other words Pump it Up has always pleased me ears DDR Extreme (the only mix within 30 miles of here) has like so many songs of the same genre that the good stuff gets lost in the songlist of 248... without DDR Freaks songlist listings I probably wouldn't play it at all. |
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Reenee
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Joined: 21 Nov 2003
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| 158. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| trayball2k wrote: |
O.k. Please email me if you guys consider a PS2 or PS3 release. Thanks. |
So please explain to the nice developers this special attention you pulled out of the air and is privileged to get the first to be told about this.
Right. Stick to reading the forums. |
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ch
Trick Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Location: IN UR FORUM POSTING ON UR THRED |
| 159. Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Reenee wrote: | | trayball2k wrote: |
O.k. Please email me if you guys consider a PS2 or PS3 release. Thanks. |
So please explain to the nice developers this special attention you pulled out of the air and is privileged to get the first to be told about this.
Right. Stick to reading the forums. |
yea e-mail me too, i feel im more important than anyone on this forum even though you dont know me at all.
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