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Konami Submits an Amended Version of Its Lawsuit
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diddrstrait
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140. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dancing Dan wrote:


Normally 3 per $2 so thats about 66 cents per song. Also, Disneyland only charges 1 dollar on their Extreme for 3 songs E1.gif Just thought id correct you there E13.gif


he's from orlando, not california. the DDR 5th mix at the disney pleasure island movie theater is $2 for 4 songs. many machines in the area a a 1.50 for single play, but most are a dollar. I believe the only .50 machine in the orlando area is at the college (university of central florida), and it's a piece of crap.

and to those of you saying that greater difficulty isn't a neccessary thing for DDR to have because "not everyone is up to that level yet"...did you ever consider that catering to everyone is better than just catering to the average player? Yes, I know you can't make everyone happy, but to players that enjoy 10s in DDR and 10+s in ITG, it's kinda lame of konami to just feed us a hand full of 10s and then make all these other songs (many of which have awesome potential) generic 7s and whatnot. This is one thing I like about ITG (especially ITG2, my arcade just got it).

Nearly every song has expert steps that are at the very least rated at level 9. In ITG I can play DDR-style hard steps in songs like clockwork genesis (a lot like Xenon), or I can bump over to expert and play an 11. I only have that option on a few songs in DDR, and most of the oni steps are either easier (sakura, kakumei, etc) or only rated 8 or 9 feet. I really dislike having to resort to edit mode to get enjoyment out of playing a song. Why should konami make me do their work just so I can enjoy their game?

Now, again as far as the lawsuit is concerned, I'm not terribly worried. It wouldn't surprise me if Konami revised their lawsuit to cover their asses. MC Groove or whatever the hell it's called was probably included because they didn't want to be accused of failing to protect their patents in the past. The only thing I see coming out of this is a settlement that involves a fat check going to konami for every ITG machine and boxor sold.
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Tsuri
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141. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gameboyguy13 wrote:
blush) Can you believe that in all that I forgot to mention the thing that first came in my mind when I first read the news update. I wonder if other games like Guitar Hero are going to be targeted next?


Why would Guitar Hero be targeted.... from what I've seen of it, it looks NOTHING like Guitar Freaks and has more play buttons... I believe the NeonFM guys contacted Konami and got the info they needed to not be sued by Konami... heh... but still I'm getting sick of hearing about Konami sueing people... it's getting annoying.... especially with some of the half assed games they make these days laugh.gif
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Reenee
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142. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does everybody keep saying "half-assed" releases? They keep making it sound like Konami's been doing this for a period of time now, when it really just applies to their LATEST 3 game releases in the top 3 main regions.

Seriously, stop it.
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kwiktripmanmeat
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143. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say, Konami, stop your doggy, stoping your whining, and just make us a new mix machine. frust.gif
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Synaesthesia
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144. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kwiktripmanmeat wrote:
I say, Konami, stop your doggy, stop your whining, and just make us a new mix machine. frust.gif


I think you should take your own advice there, and perhaps read the whole thread, as well as related threads. You should pay particular attention to Catastrophe's post regarding arcade release timelines.
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toady007
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145. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except Catastrophe's post doesn't make sense.

Dance Dance Revolution is a music game, not a fighting game, shooter game, or puzzle game.

And he mentioned Time Crisis as an example. I don't see hundreds of websites dedicated to Time Crisis teams and tournaments, along with thousands of people who keep track of their high scores and fastest clear times. People go into an arcade, play like one game, and play something else. It's profitable because tons of people walk by and play, not because there are thousands of Time Crisis fanatics. A better example would be Initial D, but that game and Maximum Tune are still upgraded regularly to hold people's interest. There are many other shooter games besides Time Crisis, so people didn't really care about the length between sequels since there were many other good shooters in the mean time. DDR does not have that luxury.

When was the last time you listened to a CD every other day for three years? Music gets old, boring, and stale quickly. There was reason Konami had to pump out new versions on a regular timetable. People don't want to listen to the same songs and play the same charts for three years. At least with most other games there is an AI involved that is constantly changing every time you play, so trying to compare it to something like Tekken is ridiculous.

And even still, a new Tekken game comes out every year, along with a multitude of other new fighting games or racing games. Remember the gigantic crowds around Soul Calibur 2 a little over a year ago? I don't see anybody playing Soul Calibur anymore.

DDR arcade machines were profitable because of the hardcore crowd that was always there whoring it out. And just the way that most of the SC2 players now play Tekken 5, most of the same hardcore DDR players are playing ITG if they have it.
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Char
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146. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[HENTAI] Reenee wrote:
Why does everybody keep saying "half-assed" releases? They keep making it sound like Konami's been doing this for a period of time now, when it really just applies to their LATEST 3 game releases in the top 3 main regions.

Seriously, stop it.


You need to pick up some Dancing Stage games. EVERY SINGLE ONE apart from fusion is a half-assed recolouring and song compilation effort that would make even an SM arcade machine owner blush. The only reason Fusion wasn't crap is because it was DDREX US with some licenses.
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gameboyguy13
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147. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsuri wrote:
gameboyguy13 wrote:
blush) Can you believe that in all that I forgot to mention the thing that first came in my mind when I first read the news update. I wonder if other games like Guitar Hero are going to be targeted next?


Why would Guitar Hero be targeted.... from what I've seen of it, it looks NOTHING like Guitar Freaks and has more play buttons...


I'd just heard that it was similar. I don't know enough about either. Speaking of which, is there anywhere that I can find information about GF? E10.gif
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cfusionpm
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148. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

toady007 wrote:
A better example would be Initial D, but that game and Maximum Tune are still upgraded regularly to hold people's interest.


actually, thats not a better example. MT might be, but its a boring ass game to begin with. once you beat story mode, theres nothing left to do anyway so people usually just go back to ID. not to mention it has only had 3 games made since about 2001 (that i know of) including the old wangan midnight R cabinet (4 if you want to include the old WM ps2 release). neither of these games are "upgraded regularly" it took nearly something like 3 years between the original wangan game and maximume tune. MT2 was released so quick because there was just nothing to do in MT1, and it got very very old very very fast. ID has had only 3 versions in its nearly 3 year life since v1. but ID version 3 has been out for more than a year with no signs of a version 4 coming out any time soon. so assuming that one comes out at all, its a long ways away, as nothing has even been announced. the anime and manga is going just fine, but the game is pretty much dead in its tracks. thats not to say people like myself are sick and tired of it and want something new. ID offers SO MUCH to do, with a long story mode, challanging bunta challange, time attack (that isnt 5 minutes of boring freeway driving), and a brilliantly addictive 2P battle and leveling system.
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toady007
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149. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you, actually.

Initial D includes both a competitive aspect, a computer AI, a ranking system, and a whole bunch of other measures to keep people playing. But Version 3 has been like a year, not three years like DDR, and people are already kinda tired of it. While a lot of regulars still play Version 3, most of the people I see now are playing Maximum Tune, but that could just be my area.

But there are many different racing games to play. While they may not be as fun as Initial D, there are alternatives that people can play while waiting for a new version. For DDR, there is one alternative that mostly caught on in Mexico and is radically different in playstyle, and then In The Groove which is of course the subject of controversy.
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150. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsuri wrote:
gameboyguy13 wrote:
blush) Can you believe that in all that I forgot to mention the thing that first came in my mind when I first read the news update. I wonder if other games like Guitar Hero are going to be targeted next?


Why would Guitar Hero be targeted.... from what I've seen of it, it looks NOTHING like Guitar Freaks and has more play buttons... I believe the NeonFM guys contacted Konami and got the info they needed to not be sued by Konami... heh... but still I'm getting sick of hearing about Konami sueing people... it's getting annoying.... especially with some of the half assed games they make these days :lol:


actualy from what IVE been hearing DJ potatoe (the "neon FM" guy is SUPPOSEDLY responisible (or paritly responislbe) for egging konami in to a law suit but then again that also wont mean that they wont turn around and sue him anyway later
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Tomo_kun
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151. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJPotatoe and Pop'N Ko *supposedly* have had konami representatives on site to check out patent infringement every step of the development.

Is this what you mean by egging konami on?
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vader
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152. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like konami is gonna get alot of money...
RELEASE A NEW MACHINE DAMNIT!!!
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153. PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomo_kun wrote:
DJPotatoe and Pop'N Ko *supposedly* have had konami representatives on site to check out patent infringement every step of the development.

Is this what you mean by egging konami on?


no i mean that he was telling the peopel he is suposedly working with that ITG was doign this and that in an effort to get r0x0r on the legal radar and is also SUPPOSEDLy doing this to DTX if any of this is true or not remains to be seen but befor eyou call bloody foul on me go talk to maticus as that is where i got my info on (plus the fact that form what i vcna tell its a very dj potatoe thing to do)
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154. PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:42 am    Post subject: Don't Fall Off Reply with quote

Dancing Dan wrote:
Normally 3 per $2 so thats about 66 cents per song. Also, Disneyland only charges 1 dollar on their Extreme for 3 songs E1.gif Just thought id correct you there E13.gif


And don't forget the other machine off in the corner of Starcade, DDR MEGAMIX! It's also $1/3 songs, and features the wonderful 'don't fall off' warning. As well, the attendant said that it was an 'older' mix of DDR, so it wasn't quite working right (the down arrow on the 2P side was shot.) laugh.gif

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spartan118
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155. PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synaesthesia wrote:
spartan118 wrote:
Star Wars, after all, replicated a dogfight frame by brame... just with spaceships. They haven't gotten any sh!t for it as of yet.


If you can show me where dogfighting is patented, that *might* lend some credence to your argument.


I've edited my post - since I was not specific enough - to include that it was in an old war movie. By the way, I'm thinking of retracting that example - satire/imitation is protected by the first amendment; and Konami vs. RoXoR isn't involved in movies, but rather game design (then again, the Supreme Court ruled that video games are also considered "art" - like that matters in patent laws anyway).

I should get back to reading the patents, since I don't think I've read them properly in the first place. Then I'll submit a revised edition of my opinion.

One more thing: I'm NOT a DDR/ITG fanboy. My opinion is based on my view of ethics, not whether I like DDr or ITG more (they're both great games).

EDIT - 8:48 PM ET: http://www.patenting-art.com/database/dancing.htm
Well, well, well... After scanning around 20 of Konami's patent claims (patent no. 6,410,835, by the way), I see that Konami has not just patented aspects of the dancing game - they've patented the dancing game as a whole. Therefore, just as many before have stated, Konami has perfectly legal grounds for suing RoXoR (AND Neon FM if they wanted to). Good thing Adamiro has taken RoXoR under their hood - otherwise, they'd be absolutely screwed. RoXoR isn't as innocent as others have painted them; and I don't give them much sympathy for breaking civil law.

On the other hand, Konami still could've kept some dignity and class in the proceedings of this matter (especially the timing); and In the Groove is still a great game, whether it breaks the law or not. I'm a bit optimistic that this will all turn out nicely in the end (hopefully with the continued existance of RoXoR) - after all, experience has taught me that the good guy wins one way or the other.

And I'm not changing my opinion on trademark/copyright infringement - a million-dollar corporation does not deserve compensation for losing a wee bit of advertising carried out as a favor by arcade owners that use bootlegs in the first place. In this matter, RoXoR tried their very hardest (rather successfully in my opinion) to not commit foul play.
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