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SineNomine
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Location: Boise, ID |
340.  Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Wintermute wrote: |
My point is....if Konami had wanted to go about this nicely, or fairly, they could've contacted Roxor individually, and expressed their concerns...shared commune about furthering the genre, worked TOGETHER...to a point...but Konami acted reprehensibly....probably because they already HAD acted reprehensibly (by not producing additional content, and suddenly realizing their mistake when a fan-created game was ACTUALLY going to get a home version release, and possibly steal additional DDR thunder), and lashed out with the best attack they could. |
All those args link right back into RoXor. If Roxor had wanted to go about this nicely, they would have contacted Konami and purchased a license to use their cabinets, and then done all that touchy feely good stuff that you wrote about. You simply can't argue that Roxor didn't know what they were doing. It's just as much shame on them for putting Konami in a situation where they had to either let their rights be infringed, or risk alienating a portion of their fanbase.
Consider another scenario. Assume for a moment that Konami HAS been developing a new arcade mix with new hardware and everything, and then before you are going to announce it at E3, a company releases a cheaper product that is designed to be placed in THEIR product. So now Konami is sitting on machines that they want to sell for 10k, while Roxor has ITG2 kits for 1-3k? Sure, this is unlikely, but it's as possible as a number of other scenarios, which is exactly why there is really little basis to say which company is being more unethical.
Also, think about the character Curley from "Of Mice and Men". He's a little guy, and he picks fights with big guys all the time. Why? Because if he wins, he gets kudos for stickin' it to the man, and if he loses, it's the other guy picking on little folks. Same situation with Roxor and Konami. You can even tell by reading the complaint that Konami is trying to go easy on them. Hell, there's a settlement that any reasonably beaten defendent would die for written into the complaint.
One more thing that I'm not sure is relevant, but I'll bring it up. When people talk about the cabinet, are they including the Stage? Because to my knowledge, ITG uses unaltered DDR Stages. Aren't those included in the patent that Konami is claiming to have? It seems to me that this would mean TKO for this lawsuit.
Here's what I think Konami needs to win:
1) That the have the patent that they claim that they do.
2) That Roxor (whether knowingly or not) designed, manufatured, and sold a product designed specifically to go into that patented product.
*3) That Roxor made money off of that product. (not really required, but helpful).
From reading the complaint, the biggest argument that Konami has is that the DDR Cabinet and Stage constitute a "Konami Product" and that Roxor by selling ITG is making trade off of the appearance, hardware, and reputation of that product. And whether or not Konami plans on making another mix or continuing to further their own products, the law says that they deserve at least a bit of the profits of having their name traded on, which Roxor should have satisfied by seeking a license to use their cabinets. |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 341. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| yyr wrote: | QUESTION.
Under the "Relief Requested" portion of the lawsuit, can item (8) (b) be interpreted as a request by Konami for RoXoR to turn over to them ALL exiting ITG kits sold? | Quote: |
Defendant be ordered to deliver for destruction: all such products or materials bearing or displaying marks confusingly similar to the products advertised, provided, sold and/or distributed by Plaintiff;
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~yyr |
It can, but it won't. More accurately, kits distributed to distributors but not yet sold to 3rd parties. I believe Doctrine Of First Sale applies here.
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Wintermute
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Location: Maryland |
| 342. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Where did Roxor infringe upon Konami's patent? By explaining how to install their product upon Konami's machine?
Is Sony suing every Flip-top PS2 owner, because we're making a modification onto our PS that allows us to swap disks????
And where did I make the inference that patent meant nothing?
Konami's trying to build a case around Roxor using Konami's logo as advertisement, and other fallasies,...because somebody didn't put a sticker on the machine properly at JoeBob's arcade? It's not as if the instruction manual within Roxor suddenly glares out and says to incorrectly re-label the machines. Is it easier to sue one company, or dozens of local arcades (who probably ALL bought up DDR machines from Japan, but Konami didn't complain about that)? Probably the one company.
That's mainly why I believe it was under-handed. I believe that Konami wanted to cause financial harm in some way. Seems to me like they might get their wish.
Once again, sorry if anybody feels offended by my opinion, being as how it's very ANTI-Konami....but I would greatly appreciate it if responses weren't deliberately tagged at me.  I'm posting *my* opinion...sorry if it's the unpopular one. |
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SineNomine
Trick Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Location: Boise, ID |
| 343. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| Wintermute wrote: | | Where did Roxor infringe upon Konami's patent? By explaining how to install their product upon Konami's machine? |
by selling a product designed to replace some part of Konami's hardware in a Konami product, by making money off of that product, and by creating a situation where they are essentially trading off of Konami Products without license.
| Quote: | | Is Sony suing every Flip-top PS2 owner, because we're making a modification onto our PS that allows us to swap disks???? |
Nope, but I bet they would if someone bought up 1000 PS2s, outfitted them with some different hardware, and then resold them as something else. Or if someone started mass marketing some hardware that essentially replaced the PS2 hardware within the PS2 box, and then proceeded to put it in an arcade and make money off of it.
| Quote: | | And where did I make the inference that patent meant nothing? |
You didn't, but some of your comment seem to imply that Konami shouldn't pursue it's patent rights, so we just sorta went with that...
| Quote: | | Konami's trying to build a case around Roxor using Konami's logo as advertisement, and other fallasies,...because somebody didn't put a sticker on the machine properly at JoeBob's arcade? It's not as if the instruction manual within Roxor suddenly glares out and says to incorrectly re-label the machines. Is it easier to sue one company, or dozens of local arcades (who probably ALL bought up DDR machines from Japan, but Konami didn't complain about that)? Probably the one company. |
Agreed, but it's also much easier to look to the source, rather than chase down all the loose ends.
| Quote: | | That's mainly why I believe it was under-handed. I believe that Konami wanted to cause financial harm in some way. Seems to me like they might get their wish. |
Well...YEAH. If someone is making money off of my products, I would certainly want a piece of the action. And more importantly, I would DESERVE a piece of the action.
| Quote: | | Once again, sorry if anybody feels offended by my opinion, being as how it's very ANTI-Konami....but I would greatly appreciate it if responses weren't deliberately tagged at me. I'm posting *my* opinion...sorry if it's the unpopular one. |
Consider it a compliment to your debating skills that you get answered so directly and frequently. You're one of the few posters that can actually sustain a reasonable dialoge with extreme views without it turning into an opinion smorgasbord. Kudos to people who know how to answer points with points. Peace. |
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 344. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Wintermute, please don't open your mouth, it only makes you look like an idiot. RoXoR is directly telling arcades to replace the official Konami computer with a BoXoR and are directly telling arcades to use the machine's dance platform. The platform that Konami has a patent to. That right there is under-handed.
I mean if you want to look closely at Konami's patent. You'll notice they also have a patent on how the game scrolls arrows, they could sue RoXoR over that both for the machines and the ps2 versions, but they aren't. They also have a patent to how the sensors work, to the size of the arrows, and to the arrow layouts, they could sue RoXoR over that with the new ITG2 Cabs, but they aren't. Count your blessings.
Before you open your mouth again on this thread go to the front page of ddr freak and read the ENTIRE injunction file. Here, better yet:
http://videos.ddrfreak.com/docs/konami_v_roxor/Main_Document.pdf
http://videos.ddrfreak.com/docs/konami_v_roxor/Exhibit_1.pdf
Read those 2. Read them COMPLETELY because it is obvious from your arguments that you haven't read them at all and you are just basing your opinion around what a bunch of kids on a forum have said, that makes you ignorant. So read up, and come back with a decent, intelligent response. I'll wait here for it. |
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Heffenfeffer
Trick Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Location: Las Cruces, NM |
| 345. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: Re: A tiny bit of legal analysis |
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| Lost_Sage wrote: |
(Lawyer-speak translations, including...)
(7) Konami hasn't asked for a preliminary injunction or a temporary restraining order, mind you, meaning they don't believe the threat of harm is "imminent." PIs and TROs are turned around more quickly and are court orders, meaning if they're violated, that carries contempt fines. But again, this is the complaint. Why Konami doesn't go for the home run in this regard anyways is slightly puzzling at first. That is, if Konami is timing the lawsuit to coincide with the new ITG releases, it has to believe more harm to it is imminent.
But considering what's coming out - ITG2, which appears to be more free, if not completely free, of the patent issues, and the console version, which is clear of the patent problem altogether, that's not surprising in some ways. The imminent harm -- arguably legal ITG products -- is not the harm being complained of -- the ITG1 kits being stuffed in DDR consoles and allegedly "passed off" as critically-acclaimed Konami products.
Hope that helps. Again, let's hold our horses, folks. A few of you have correctly pointed out that we are a litigious country. Complaints get filed all the time. Let's wait for Roxor's answer.
And legal rights are legal rights. Its callousness towards the North American market aside, Konami has a pretty good claim.
And Roxor should have done its homework (or at least read up in what happened with the Andamiro stuff) a little more, maybe had its IP attorneys cut this off at the pass / try to negotiate with Konami, using some of the arguments some of you made: "Hey Konami, you weren't using this market / you don't care about these machines anyways. Mind if we cut you off a little piece, and independently advance the genre with our own dirty work?"
Take care,
- Sage
P.S. No legal fees -- consider this a pro bono project from an aspiring lawyer (graduating in 1 week; taking the bar in 2 months). I doubt you'll get that kind of charity from Baker, one of the largest corporate law firms in the country ... |
First off, thank you very much for the pro bono legal analysis. I'd make a lawyer joke at this point, but you've probably heard them all and would have nothing to gain from the OLDEST JOKE IN HISTORY. (My mother-in-law! Ahahahahahahahahh!1111) 
But I've got a few questions if you don't mind answering:
First off, can Konami still file a preliminary injunction at this point? I'm particularly worried if they do, since it could take forever to settle/play-through this lawsuit, and time is money. One example of it being especially costly was the injunction that Sony got over Connectix for VirtualGameStation a few years back - it took over a year to Sony to lose the trial. By the time they did, the PS2 had come out. Needless to say, the demand for a PS1 emulator had gone to zilch, and Connectix sold off VGS to Sony (who dismantled it.)
Second, can RoXoR claim that arcade owners are installing their ITG kits improperly? In page ten of the official ITG manual it clearly states to remove all existing stickers and the marquee before applying ITG stickers. Can they claim that the trademark dilution falls on the part of arcade operators that don't follow directions? As a special 20-20 hindsight bonus, could RoXoR have been in the clear on Counts II-VII if they put up a "In The Groove is not liscensed by or in any way affiliated with Konami(R), nor Dance Dance Revolution(tm)" screen in attract mode or somesuch?
Third, I'm fairly sure I understand Counts II-VII about trademark dilution (and correct me if I'm wrong, but those all center around displaying DDR/Konami stickers on ITG.) However, I don't understand the first count on what Konami claims is patent infrigement - what is Konami claiming infrigement on? The hardware? The software? The total package? A removable box replacing some of DDR's internals? It seems like it's not focused on any specific violation (and perhaps this is intentional.)
Thanks for helping to sort out the court docs.
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 346. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| SineNomine wrote: | | You can even tell by reading the complaint that Konami is trying to go easy on them. Hell, there's a settlement that any reasonably beaten defendent would die for written into the complaint. |
As I see it, Konami "request relief" to the tune of opening Roxor's books, treble damages awarded, stop making Boxors, give Konami all the Boxors, give konami all the advertising junk, letterheads, flyers, stickers and "computer programs" related to the infringement, and anything else the court thinks is cool.
Playing nice is "Fucking stop it or you're in trouble". |
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Wintermute
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Location: Maryland |
| 347. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Muchos Gracias amigo.
From what I understand, the ITG arcade kits must be ordered, shipped, and then installed...they do not come in one big glaring-tv-screened-kit. They must be installed by the purchaser, on-site.
...which sounds to me a lot like a Flip-top. It enhances the current product, not displaces it. Everyone still knows that I own a PS2....they barely even notice the Fliptop unless I point it out.
To say that ITG made money off of DDR's popularity is not-debatable. Obviously it's the same relationship as Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat....they're both fighting games. One forged the genre, one followed after (and became immensely more popular in some circles). ITG produced a product with instructions that could be used in that cabinet (or others). ITG didn't try to produce a Konami cabinet, advertise themselves as being Konami-affiliated, didn't steal any of Konami's KO's, and didn't really do anything else that was blatantly 'thumb-in-the-nose' to Konami.
I don't think it's fair to say that they 'stole' Konami's hard work, either...they used whatever cabinets they could to get a start, and now they're planning their own cabinets for the future (which is a heckuva lot more than Konami for now).
All things said and done, what's the most that can come of this anyway?
ITG shuts down all their ITG1 machines, arcade-owners re-install their DDR banners, and Konami gets a few more quarters, while Roxor pays out 75K or so? Then Roxor releases their home version AND ITG2 in a different non-Konami cabinet, and STILL blows DDR away? Then, it'll force both companies to grow and evolve.
Which is best for us, anyways.
| Quote: | Wintermute, please don't open your mouth, it only makes you look like an idiot. RoXoR is directly telling arcades to replace the official Konami computer with a BoXoR and are directly telling arcades to use the machine's dance platform. The platform that Konami has a patent to. That right there is under-handed.
I mean if you want to look closely at Konami's patent. You'll notice they also have a patent on how the game scrolls arrows, they could sue RoXoR over that both for the machines and the ps2 versions, but they aren't. They also have a patent to how the sensors work, to the size of the arrows, and to the arrow layouts, they could sue RoXoR over that with the new ITG2 Cabs, but they aren't. Count your blessings.
Before you open your mouth again on this thread go to the front page of ddr freak and read the ENTIRE injunction file. Here, better yet:
http://videos.ddrfreak.com/docs/konami_v_roxor/Main_Document.pdf
http://videos.ddrfreak.com/docs/konami_v_roxor/Exhibit_1.pdf
Read those 2. Read them COMPLETELY because it is obvious from your arguments that you haven't read them at all and you are just basing your opinion around what a bunch of kids on a forum have said, that makes you ignorant. So read up, and come back with a decent, intelligent response. I'll wait here for it. |
I did read the five documents (lengthy boiler language describing their situations).
I apologize if I seem 'idoitic' by 'opening my mouth'. Since you have inside information, I'd like you to please post a copy of the instruction manual and advertisement that Roxor used to seduce the arcade-operators *into* the sale...and where it outlines under-handedly their desire only to attack Konami.
I'll stop now. I'm sorry I garnered the negativity. Take care, all.
Last edited by Wintermute on Thu May 12, 2005 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 348. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | SineNomine wrote: | | You can even tell by reading the complaint that Konami is trying to go easy on them. Hell, there's a settlement that any reasonably beaten defendent would die for written into the complaint. |
As I see it, Konami "request relief" to the tune of opening Roxor's books, treble damages awarded, stop making Boxors, give Konami all the Boxors, give konami all the advertising junk, letterheads, flyers, stickers and "computer programs" related to the infringement, and anything else the court thinks is cool.
Playing nice is "Fucking stop it or you're in trouble". |
Not playing so nice, which Konami could have done:
We want ALL of your money, your company, your employees, software, hardware, ps2 game and everything else. Then Konami would cancell the ps2 game, fire the employees, destroy the games. Shut down RoXoR then go from Arcade to Arcade and force them to get rid of their BoXoRs. |
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 349. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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They could ask for all that and require that RoXoR employees create a human pyramid which stretches to the moon and have KeeL personally hand Naoki a piece of moon rock, but there's no way in hell either of them is going to happen.
My point is that anyone who thinks this complaint doesn't have bite is kidding themselves. To give uninformed, speculative opinion, it could well be that Konami is taking what little they know they have to go on in court and using the damages to take down RoXoR financially. |
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Wintermute
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Location: Maryland |
| 350. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | ...it could well be that Konami is taking what little they know they have to go on in court and using the damages to take down RoXoR financially. |
THAT's the inference I had. |
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The Mole
Trick Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Location: Cape Cod, MA |
| 351. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Yes I Do Concur
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Dance To Stay Alive
Yes, I own my own DDR/ITG2 machine.
My scores are mostly upgrade.
Come by sometime and play. |
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IguanaGrrl
Staff Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA |
| 352. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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We need cristyne, miss future patent lawyer here. 
Ok, I'm going to state my opinion and be done with all of this because I think it's completely silly to wax philosophical about the future of DDR or ITG with the court case not even being completed yet.
Coming from someone with a business degree, I can genuinely see both sides of the spectrum in this. Roxor is trying to provide a service to players who have been neglected by the originators of the popular dancing series of games. Konami is trying to protect their intellectual property.
I remember when ITG started into the arcades. I remember commenting that this was a court case waiting to happen because of patent violation.
I'm honestly surprised that it took this long, but it's completely possible that Konami of Japan was waiting to see if they would even need to waste their time and money on a court case or not, as you can't base a product's popularity on the first few months of release.
I admire Roxor's attempt at bring arcade dancing games back to the community, but in my eyes, it was a pretty blatant patent violation from the beginning. Granted, I'm not a patent lawyer.
I honestly have yet to play ITG, more due to lack of interest in all dancing games at the moment than anything, so I'm not going to express an opinion as to which is better.
I will, however, comment that I feel the 'Konami is evil' sentiments need to go away. If you took the time to research and create something and patent it for fear of someone stealing the concept, then I'm sure you would want to protect your hard work when it IS stolen.
In any case, that's my stance and I'm sticking to it.
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Loogaroo
Trick Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Location: Glendale, CA |
| 353. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Char wrote: | | My point is that anyone who thinks this complaint doesn't have bite is kidding themselves. To give uninformed, speculative opinion, it could well be that Konami is taking what little they know they have to go on in court and using the damages to take down RoXoR financially. |
It looks to me as if that's exactly what they're trying to do.
Again, I don't care what legal grounds Konami has or what responsibility RoXoR had in the first place. The point is, Konami is going to make a lot of ITG players unhappy by taking the neutron bomb route.
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Uiru
Contributor
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Location: the floating castle of Newfoundland |
| 354. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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I will say this.
| A while ago Uiru wrote: | | I'm still half expecting Konami to drop the bomb (get it?!) on Roxor the instant the PS2 ITG ships. |
For once, Konami anticipated me.
| A while ago Uiru wrote: | | Maybe one day Roxor will figure out that making someone else's idea look flashy does not make it your idea. |
Is that day upon us? Will justice be served?
~Uiru
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 355. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| The Mole wrote: | | Yes I Do Concur |
You would, do you even know what is going on here Joel  |
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sherl0k
Maniac Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Location: the internet |
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iamstorm
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Peoria, IL |
| 357. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Just an FYI for everyone, it is very possible that the home version will not be released. I am not saying this is confirmed, but I contacted a Roxor Games employee and asked if In The Groove was still going to come out, and he said "I cannot comment on anything .... I just can't ... I cannot comment on anything" .... and that was that. |
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 358. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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He said he can't comment on anything. How does that translate into FYI GUYS THERE WILL BE NO ITG. No offence, but giving information to fans worried about the release or non release of console games can hardly be your top priority when you probably have lawyers going over every single thing you've ever said in public with a toothpick.
If nothing else, I'd be saying "No comment" simply through getting annoyed at having to explain stuff and answer questions every 5 minutes as I get bombarded with people who can contact me saying WHAT IS GOING ON!!! |
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Anthony of TGA
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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| 359. Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| iamstorm wrote: | | Just an FYI for everyone, it is very possible that the home version will not be released. I am not saying this is confirmed, but I contacted a Roxor Games employee and asked if In The Groove was still going to come out, and he said "I cannot comment on anything .... I just can't ... I cannot comment on anything" .... and that was that. |
If I had a nickle for every stupid comment someone made I would buy this gun and shoot them in the face with it.
Note: referance -- http://www.bemanistyle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=317571&highlight=#317571 |
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