Trouble in Groove-land

Loogaroo · Trick Member Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Location: Glendale, CA

If Konami really wanted to make money, they would've asked RoXoR for a cut of the profits from their BoXoRs, with the lawsuit as a last resort. Not only could Konami generate what would be considered a fair amount for use of their cabinets, but they would again be making money in an area that they haven't made any money in for over three years. Upgrade kits and the like might become more expensive as a result, but arcade owners would probably be willing to pay a little more for those kits.

But no - this isn't about money. This is about Konami wanting to be the only kid in the pool.
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Aaron_Kwok · Trick Member Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX

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Lost_Sage · Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: Re: A tiny bit of legal analysis

Hi folks -- figured I would use my law student expertise to clarify a few things brought up the complaint (kudos to DDR Freak for getting the complaint so quickly). I have tried my best to make the "law talk" as understandable as possible -- since that is an often-repeated (and admittedly valid) critique of the profession.

(1) Not surprising all the heat Konami is bringing. You lead with everything in the complaint - everything you could possibly argue, good or not. (That's how the DDR Freak stuff made it into paragraph 8 - self-serving comments always make the cut for the complaint.) The complaint is the first part of the trial - plead away. Parties can and do amend their pleadings later.

(2) Konami won't get all the money it's asking for -- throw in Lanham Act treble damages (so assume millions of dollars in damages, then triple that bad boy -- ouch) and attorneys' fees (think in the multi-millions, especially since their corporate counsel is a big firm) -- Roxor doesn't have all that money.

The injunction's the important part -- telling Roxor to stop what it thinks Roxor's doing. Injunctions aim at so-called "irreparable harm" -- things that can't be fixed with money. In this case, it is the supposed continuing injury to Konami's patent-protected technologies and its reputation, and Roxor getting gain from using these resources.

(3) The infringement is as to the patent stated -- the cabinet/arcade version -- not to console games. Any effect on the console games would solely be by way of the economic damage of the lawsuit should Konami win/settle for lots of money.

(4) Again, folks, this is the complaint -- the first document in civil litigation. Roxor has some time here to file an answer. Let's see what they say. Either that, or they will try to settle off the bat. Again, you are likely to see settlement contemplated -- because Roxor's alternative is, frankly, to go belly up (if not in the process of defending the suit, then in losing it).

(5) Konami will try a few more times to end the case early (filing the complaint has the scare-tactic effect many of you correctly point out). It is likely to move for judgment on the pleadings at first, then summary judgment later after it's had some time to do discovery on Roxor.

(6) Roxor is unlikely to succeed on a motion to dismiss the whole case or get summary judgment. Konami is stating facially valid claims (the test is "assuming what you said in the complaint is true, do you have a legal claim for which you can get court relief"), and the judge will probably let this go past summary judgment to trial if the parties can't settle because of the complexities of patent litigation.

(7) Konami hasn't asked for a preliminary injunction or a temporary restraining order, mind you, meaning they don't believe the threat of harm is "imminent." PIs and TROs are turned around more quickly and are court orders, meaning if they're violated, that carries contempt fines. But again, this is the complaint. Why Konami doesn't go for the home run in this regard anyways is slightly puzzling at first. That is, if Konami is timing the lawsuit to coincide with the new ITG releases, it has to believe more harm to it is imminent.

But considering what's coming out - ITG2, which appears to be more free, if not completely free, of the patent issues, and the console version, which is clear of the patent problem altogether, that's not surprising in some ways. The imminent harm -- arguably legal ITG products -- is not the harm being complained of -- the ITG1 kits being stuffed in DDR consoles and allegedly "passed off" as critically-acclaimed Konami products.

Hope that helps. Again, let's hold our horses, folks. A few of you have correctly pointed out that we are a litigious country. Complaints get filed all the time. Let's wait for Roxor's answer.

And legal rights are legal rights. Its callousness towards the North American market aside, Konami has a pretty good claim.

And Roxor should have done its homework (or at least read up in what happened with the Andamiro stuff) a little more, maybe had its IP attorneys cut this off at the pass / try to negotiate with Konami, using some of the arguments some of you made: "Hey Konami, you weren't using this market / you don't care about these machines anyways. Mind if we cut you off a little piece, and independently advance the genre with our own dirty work?"

Take care,
- Sage

P.S. No legal fees -- consider this a pro bono project from an aspiring lawyer (graduating in 1 week; taking the bar in 2 months). I doubt you'll get that kind of charity from Baker, one of the largest corporate law firms in the country ...

Aaron_Kwok · Trick Member Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX

Aaron_Kwok · Trick Member Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX

LET ME SHOW YOU THEM · Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Merciful

Aaron_Kwok · Trick Member Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Location: Lubbock, TX

Char · Trick Member Joined: 30 Apr 2004

Wolfman Jake · Trick Member Joined: 13 Sep 2002

Thanks, Lost_Sage. That was all very informative

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Wintermute · Trick Member Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Location: Maryland

*sigh*
You know, seeing and reading all of this has made me exceedingly sad. Sincerely.

A few million years ago, I fell in love with DDR on the PS1....bought every American version ever made, and looked forward eagerly to the PS2 versions. I got all of them....even imported Extreme from Japan (because there wasn't enough of it over here)....and loved it all...endlessly delving into arrows and complicated patterns.

And then...it just kinda stopped. I supported Konami...not just via Castlevania, and Metal Gear Solid....but also through DDR and Karaoke Revolution. Hell, the only reason I started buying the Karaoke Revolutions was to HELP Konami, and hopefully keep interest in DDR or music-oriented products high...

But here we are...many moons later, with only 3 Karaoke Revolutions, and 1 US Extreme. Japan had...what...12 Karaoke Revolutions? *sigh* And the US Extreme we got...c'mon guys. For real. Re-hash of most of the songs we already had, half-assed songs thrown together from Karaoke Revolution 1 (when KR3 was just coming out), and long-awaited songs that SHOULD have been out long before. I ended up buying the US version basically to have LoM, A and V for quick play, without having to do disk swapping for my Japanese Extreme. Should it really have taken that long? Should I have had to do all that? Put up with a crappy interface that was more happy-go-lucky, and endure a game that felt sloshed together (because of the missing songs), with more attention going toward the 'hands and feet' mode than anything else? Bull.

Why did Konami finally go with a Hands and Feet, anyway? Oh!! Wait!!! That's right! Someone ELSE got inventive and tried to DO that...so Konami sued the hell out of them. *slaps forehead*

You know, I've saw 15-some pages of all this pointless bickering back and forth, when the courts will ultimately decide...but hell, I'll throw my million dollars into the pot and get it over with.

If Roxor did evil by using Konami's booths....well so be it. They should pay some sort of royalty fee to Konami for that, and never use their booths again. Roxor and Red Octane could team up and make their OWN booths from now on, and shut up the Konami-monster.

And I know that Konami has a patent on 'scrolling arrows' or whatever...but I've got to say, this case could easily prove that copyright invalid and too broad. I wouldn't be surprised if their copyright is removed after this case. Let's try to comprehend this, shall we?

Capcom sues Midway, SNK, Namco...etc...for making 'games where two players (or one-player versus a computer opponent) engage in combat via punches, kicks, throws, grapples and mystical or technological attacks, in order to determine a winner'. Could you really see somebody comparing Street Fighter to Soul Calibur in that regard?

Id sues Bungie, Midway and pretty much everybody else....for making 'games of a first (and occassional third)-person perspective in which the player's goal is typically to shoot, kill, blow-up and maim other players (AI-controlled and real)'.

For real....we're talking about a genre. Did Capcom sue every cheap-assed Resident Evil knock-off out there (even some produced in-house, lol)? No. The only ever such game lawsuit I heard of before this one was Capcom suing the blatantly obvious Street Fighter ripoff. Capcom left MK alone...and everybody else that followed. Namco made 'fighting' games....hell, I could sit down and make one if I wanted to....but it's no different than a bunch of guys in Texas sitting down and saying 'hey, let's make a dancing game!'

And I can't belive that it IS. For dignity's sake, Konami DOESN'T OWN ARROWS. And if somehow the court-case determines they do, I encourage Roxor or whomever else is out there to make a game with scrolling Konami symbols that player's can step on.

I haven't been excited about a DDR in quite a while....because Konami doesn't do anything for us. Papa-corp sits back and relaxes, while our buddies at KCEH struggle to work out new songs, new stepcharts, and things that will keep our imagination going....but where's KCEJ? Apparently not interested in their US brethren who KEEP the genre alive FOR them.

How can Roxor be bad for Konami? THEY CAN'T. They'll help to keep the genre alive, until KCEJ decides to feed us another rehash. Competition is only good for the fans. It means we get more games, more variety, and don't have to simply 'deal with whatever Konami wants to sell us'....we have the choice of buying ELSEWHERE. Maybe Konami would actually have to INNOVATE and PROGRESS, instead of ignoring us.

But since Roxor also stands a chance of being squashed by this, I can only tell you one SOLID fact from all of this:

You have lost me, Konami. Through your determined efforts to undermine all competition, and your stalwort devotion to NEGATIVE progression and innovation, you have lost me. And the 40-some fans I brought into the game, who ALL purchased your cheesy pads and copies of every game. You've also lost our purchasing Metal Gear games, Castlevania games, Karaoke games, Konami peripherals...and whatever the hell else you and Hideo Kojima and Naoki can come up with. You might not hear my one post, but you will certainly never again get my ONE DOLLAR.

If you do care, as a company, I welcome your retorts. My email is [email protected].

And I'd like to repeat: This is in no way directed toward my friends at KCEH....I think they've done an amazing job of trying to keep things fresh and new for us...and I will more than likely continue to support their projects in the future......

But as for KCEJ? Hell no.

- Wintermute ILSI

Tomo_kun · Trick Member Joined: 26 Oct 2003 Location: SE-WI.

Geeze, im offline for a few days and *this* happens. As others have said, its about time. It doesn't surprise me, and yet, I feel that it should have happend. This lawsuit makes *much more* sence then the Andamiro case.
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ITG sucks my left nut · Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:22 am Post subject:

konamOwned

Mr. A · Trick Member Joined: 20 Oct 2003 Location: INTERNET

Wolfman Jake · Trick Member Joined: 13 Sep 2002

Wintermute, Konami is going after Roxor explicitly for the use of Konami's DDR cabinet, which they own the patent to, without their permission. This has nothing to do with the arrow scroll patent and is really rather different from the suit Konami filed against Andamiro years ago. As sad as it is to say, Roxor really didn't do their homework on this one. They either thought they had all their legal ducks in a row or they thought they'd slip in under the radar, but they obviously miscalculated. Others have pointed it out too that Roxor claimed time and again they had sorted this all out with Konami, which is clearly not the case. As bad as people might think this suit makes Konami look, it may make Roxor look just as bad to others for either lying to the public or totally dropping the ball on using Konami's patented cabinets.
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