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SNK
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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40.  Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ZOOT wrote: | | In any event, I'd like StepMania to get its own look; I think the community can do better than just mimicing DDR. |
Indeed, since the more original themes have surpassed the DDR-looking themes in many ways IMO. This idea has been brought up to themers before, but the problem is that no one is sure what it should look like, and the devs probably should be the ones to define what the style should be. Light, dark, Bemani-feel, anime-feel, neither, etc. Hard to say. |
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CNLohr
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| 41. Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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ALL TEXT WITHIN IS MY OPINION AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVISE! I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DECISIONS THAT YOU MAY MAKE REGARDING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I AM NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVISE. PLEASE DO UNDERSTAND THIS BEFORE READING WHAT I AM WRITING.
| dj striker wrote: |
Well, has SM or ITG applied for any patents?
Are they making any money off of it?
That's why it's not illegal.
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SM and ITG will not apply for patents.
StepMania is under the X11/MIT liecnse. This is even more open than the GNU GPL license.
Everything in StepMania, all the ideas, all the concepts, etc is public. Any new things in StepMania that could be patentable are already public and therefore no one can patent them.
I do not know if I got to the heart of your quote, but basically, if SM or ITG wanted to use Patents, they would have to pay royalties to the owners of those patents.
| rampage wrote: |
SM (and ITG) blatantly violates Konami's patents on DDR-style gameplay.
I'm sure if it was sold for profit, Konami would clamp down on it (I'm sure it's a matter of time before they clamp down on ITG). Pump it Up's makers Andamiro have to pay royalties to Konami, after all.
Evidence:
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As a side note, it is EXTREMELY difficult to prosecute patent infringement. In a case like StepMania, it's virtually impossible because they are hardly infringing. If Chris or Glenn(ZOOT) from StepMania did decide to go to court over it, they would most likely win by showing all the other games that use it, and make it appear as if it were general knowledge. If this was done, then it could make the patents in question invalid. Konami wants to keep what they can.
Also, there are a number of patens that the patents listed earlier infringe on. Those patents have since expired. Any idea in any patent that has expired is public knowledge and free to use.
Also, there have been many cases where patents have been made invalid by previous events.
If I have product that demonstrates a technology, and I display it in public, and I get people to sign something saying that they saw it in operation... Another company can patent
it, and the patent can be approved. If the company tries to sue me for infringing on their patent, there is little that they can realistically do.
The fact that StepMania is open source doesn't really make it harder for konami to sue. If Konami felt that they were losing profit because of the existance of another program, they would want to terminate the program. Weather or not they get some token payment out of the court battle wouldn't matter too much.
The fact that so many of these patents are recent is confusing.
| Desoulman wrote: |
If they were to start suing people, they would only go after people or companies that are worth it. I am pretty sure the person(s) who made stepmania probably don't have enough money to even cover court costs, so Konami would lose in the end, financially.
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I doubt that a company's rep amongst communities as small as this really matter. Look at the number of people who use Microsoft Windows. Even those who beleive microsoft is horrible, they continue to buy the product.
StepMania has a value of $0. But again, it wouldn't be the initial $$ won from court that Konami would be going after; it would be the gained value and sales of their own games.
Expansion on icywindow's line: When distributing music, it is necessiary to have permission both from the author AND publisher. If Rob Zombie says I can use Reload in my arcade machine, that isn't all I need. I need Warner-Chappelle's permission as well.
| tepples wrote: |
| Dancing Dan wrote: |
If im not mistaken SM looked almost EXACTLY the same as DDR MAX.
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And Debian won't include StepMania in its GNU/Linux distribution until somebody makes a new
default theme that isn't designed to imitate 6th Mix as closely.
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EXACTLY! The theme is the only questionable portion of StepMania.
[QUOTE="http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/consolidated_laws.pdf"]
The Director shall charge the following fees for maintaining in force all patents based on
applica-tions filed on or after December 12, 1980:
(1) 3 years and 6 months after grant, $830.
(2) 7 years and 6 months after grant, $1,900.
(3) 11 years and 6 months after grant, $2,910.
Unless payment of the applicable mainte-nance fee is received in the Patent and Trademark
Office on or before the date the fee is due or within a grace period of six months thereafter, the patent will expire as of the end of such grace period. The Director may require the payment of a surcharge as a condition of accepting within such 6-month grace period the payment of an applicable maintenance fee. No fee may be established for maintaining a design or plant patent in force.
[35 U.S.C. 41 Section b]
But ... Also..
(2) TERM.Subject to the payment of fees under this title, such grant shall be for a term begin-ning on the date on which the patent issues and ending 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, if the application contains a specific reference to an earlier filed application or applications under section 120, 121, or 365(c) of this title, from the date on which the earliest such application was filed.
[35 U.s.C 154 Section a]
| A2P wrote: |
1. Simulators aren't making profits. This is a free game, so they are not stealing Konami's Profits
2. Really, isn't actually DANCING better? I mean, c'mon! Only 21 people in the whole world would like this better than the actual GAME of Dance Dance Revolution!
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1) In court Konami could try to show that their profits are being hurt by the product. (Similar to what happend with Napster)
2) And MOST of the people I know who play DDR play on dance mats, and with mats like LevelSix's PS USB Dance mat (designed for StepMania and DWI) who wouldn't?
| Decklin wrote: |
- If Stepmania *is* illegal, there is no reason Konami can't do something about without also going after imports. They might then be "hypocrites", but that doesn't matter legally.
Similarly, Konami could crack down on imports and continue to ignore Stepmania if they wished. This isn't a trademark issue where they *have* to defend their mark or lose it; copyright infringement is still copyright infringement no matter how lazy the holder of the rights is.
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You can't say StepMania IS illegal, because it's not clearly illegal.
The only part of stepmania that could possibly be copyright infringment is the graphics.
We should only be debaiting Patent infringement here.
ALSO; there are MANY copyright free themes in circulation now. When DDRMX did the "best theme of 2k4" there was a list of I believe 48 themes. at least 5 were copyright free.
If I were you I would talk to the FoonMix people. While their work is somewhat copyright infringing, a lot is not and very original.
| Bigboy45678 wrote: |
Has anyone ever noticed that the machine says " Illegal to use outside of japan UNLESS
AUTHORIZED BY KONAMI and the konami they're talking about is probably Konami of Japan!
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Yes.
This goes into the theread I wrote extensivly about on BemaniStyle/DDRManiaX.net regarding StepMania's legality versus playing Improperly licensed DDR in public. I.E. At Otakon, I believe that it was more illegal for them to use DDR Ex JP Home than if they would have used
StepMania.
http://www.bemanistyle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8751
| EmiOfBrie wrote: |
Yeah, they still do, but they raised the term from 17 to 90 years, and even under the old limit, a copyright can be renewed for a new term when the current one expires.
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I do not have the exact USC refrence to it, but I am almost positive that it was and still is 100 years, or 75 years after the death of the copyright owner, whichever is shorter.
17 years rings a bell with something to do with patents.?
| Cutriss wrote: |
This is so wrong that it's comically funny.
Having just dealt with it in another thread, I'll point out that StepmaniaX has more of a legal anchor around its neck than Stepmania, since not only is it in Stepmania's legal murky waters, but it's also commonly distributed in binary form, which *is* illegal since it's built using copyrighted Microsoft binaries. ERGO: StepmaniaX is illegal (when not in source form).
And yes, ZOOT is right. Don't even bother trying to address this with them - they don't *want* to know if it's illegal or not. It's better for them legally to assume that it is.
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Yes. The XBOX port is very questionable. The legality of modding your XBOX is questionable, just about anything surrounding it is terribly questionable.
But that is one of the things you just don't really worry about until Microsoft cares. Then they'll see if it's actually legal or not.
StepMania itself on the otehr hand is a more important case I'd say. As it stands StepMania is already used for a number of things, such as the many Popn'Ko Projects as well as ITG.
| ZOOT wrote: |
I do spend most of my effort on the code, not the theme, simply because the code is most important to me; I want to ensure that it's clearly licensed and safely reusable, and I have my hands full with that. In any event, I'd like StepMania to get its own look; I think the community can do better than just mimicing DDR.
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I spent most of my time on the code, and I feel the same as ZOOT. It really is the community's responsibility to create legal threads that do not mimic DDR.
Neveras Kaiveran, Much thanks for your theme to that... Not that TechnoFiend doesn't rip off EVERY single OTHER game on the face of the earth heh.
ALL TEXT WITHIN IS MY OPINION AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS LEGAL ADVISE! I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DECISIONS THAT YOU MAY MAKE REGARDING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I AM NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVISE. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS, AND DO NOT MAKE ANY DECISION THAT COULD CAUSE LOSS BASED UPON WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.
Charles |
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SNK
Trick Member
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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| 42. Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| CNLohr wrote: |
It really is the community's responsibility to create legal threads that do not mimic DDR.
Neveras Kaiveran, Much thanks for your theme to that... |
I can't take all the credit on that one, since there's also original themes like Trance Machina, FoonMix/Mod and others, though I take pride in taking Techno Fiend in a completely non-Bemani/DDR direction.
| CNLohr wrote: |
Not that Techno Fiend doesn't rip off EVERY single OTHER game on the face of the earth heh. |
*LMAO for an hour* That is so so so true, and don't forget TV shows and movies too. What's funnier is that the next version of the theme has even more of that stuff. |
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Edible Bondage Tape
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Location: Kerri |
| 43. Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Trylan (Another) wrote: |
And the other 10% are using official kits that are illegally being used in the US (if you're wondering, it says right on the cabinet that the game is illegal for use / sale outside of japan.)
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check out how fare use laws and international fair taid laws work those warnings are acutlay unenforcible leagaly the long and short of it is that while it woudl be illegal for KONAMI to directly sell the game disks to locations outside of where thier licenses are for they are free to sell to whomever they wish INSIDE the license zone reguardless of weather the individauls have intentions to sell to places konami cant legally and atleast in america (and most other developed countries) if you by something legally (remeber the reseller is free to sell to whomever they want to they arnt bound by any of the license legal sell zones as they never signed a contract) you are allowed to use said item in its intended manner (ie home gmaes may be played at hom eand arcade games may be publickly displaed and charged to be used) without any violations
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ZOOT
Roxor Staff
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
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| 44. Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Empress Bouncy Tits wrote: | | check out how fare use laws and international fair taid laws work those warnings are acutlay unenforcible leagaly the long and short of it is that while it woudl be illegal for KONAMI to directly sell the game disks to locations outside of where thier licenses are for they are free to sell to whomever they wish INSIDE the license zone reguardless of weather the individauls have intentions to sell to places konami cant legally and atleast in america (and most other developed countries) if you by something legally (remeber the reseller is free to sell to whomever they want to they arnt bound by any of the license legal sell zones as they never signed a contract) you are allowed to use said item in its intended manner (ie home gmaes may be played at hom eand arcade games may be publickly displaed and charged to be used) without any violations |
Sentence buffer overflow ... |
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GeeForce
Trick Member
Joined: 09 May 2004
Location: Sterling Heights, MI |
| 45. Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dude that's how EBT writes.... I don't like it, but I've gotten used to it.
*******MAJOR LI3K Z0MG ALERT*******
I was gonna make a new topic for this (and I still might, it would get more views), but DDRUK is gone. They say it should be up soon, but the only thing I (and I'm sure many others) used it for is closed.
| Go to www.ddruk.com and you will see they have wrote: | Currently this site has had to be placed into a temporary state of closure. This is in direct response to communication from the IFPI in regards to a variety of links and files that were available from this site.
No direct legal action is being raised, and this action has been voluntarily undertaken.
We hope for normal service to resume soon. |
I must say though, they kind of had it coming. But then again.... I don't know. Is anyone active on the DDRUK forums, did they say anything about it?
When they come back up they'll surely have a news post, but I'm impatient. Of course, they could be done for good like DDRManiax and stepmaniastuff. *shrug* basically, anyone got anything to say?
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| Tassadar wrote: | | MinsiKid wrote: | | is just a good feeling. |
Have you considered heroin? |
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The Supervisor
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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| 46. Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Why isn't StepMania illegal? |
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| Promit wrote: | No, not the DWIs. Not the MP3s. The game itself.
Doesn't Stepmania (and in fact all the other sims too) fall squarely under the category of copyright violation? It's a pretty blatant rip off of DDR, you have to admit. If you look at patterns for other companies...I mean Blizzard had Freecraft shut down (C&D order) just because it was capable of similar gameplay to their Starcraft/Warcraft games.
So I guess my question is, why is Stepmania legal to begin with, and why hasn't Konami fed them a C&D order? |
i wouldnt reaqlly call stepmania a game, its more of a tool. when u download it theres nothing on it 2 do. when u think about it it is just there so u can use simfiles. websites that dont pay 4 a special licence 2 let ppl download the stuff should b illigal |
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CNLohr
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| 47. Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the major problem with DDRUK that I thought was that it was giving DIRECT links to files for download. There was no 'community' sense to it unlike bit torrents.
While bit torrents are equally as illegal, in general RIAA and international agencies leave bit torrent sites alone unless they are pissing them off.
I do believe DDRUK should be back and mostly functional  |
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Cutriss
Staff Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 48. Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| CNLohr wrote: | | Well, the major problem with DDRUK that I thought was that it was giving DIRECT links to files for download. There was no 'community' sense to it unlike bit torrents. |
That didn't help Suprnova.
The next step will be hosting Trackers on Geoshitties accounts. >.>
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Jeremy37077829
Trick Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Location: New York |
| 49. Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| GeeForce272 wrote: | I was gonna make a new topic for this (and I still might, it would get more views), but DDRUK is gone. They say it should be up soon, but the only thing I (and I'm sure many others) used it for is closed.
| Go to www.ddruk.com and you will see they have wrote: | Currently this site has had to be placed into a temporary state of closure. This is in direct response to communication from the IFPI in regards to a variety of links and files that were available from this site.
No direct legal action is being raised, and this action has been voluntarily undertaken.
We hope for normal service to resume soon. |
I must say though, they kind of had it coming. But then again.... I don't know. Is anyone active on the DDRUK forums, did they say anything about it?
When they come back up they'll surely have a news post, but I'm impatient. Of course, they could be done for good like DDRManiax and stepmaniastuff. *shrug* basically, anyone got anything to say? |
It says "this action has been voluntarily undertaken". In my opinion, my translation of this is "we got caught and are screwed but don't want to tell you." DDRUK will, of course, be up again in a matter of weeks, maybe months. But they defintetly will not have those SM/DWI files to download anymore. Just forums and all that other stuff. Too bad. 
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EmiOfBrie
Trick Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Location: Hopkins, MN |
| 50. Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Cutriss wrote: | | That didn't help Suprnova. |
Suprnova went down voluntarily....the people who brought us Suprnova are switching to a new download standard based on BitTorrent (eXeem) that involves adware, unfortunately...
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CNLohr
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| 51. Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, this may tweak my interest. I wonder if I can reverse engineer it  |
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kyaku
Trick Member
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
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| 52. Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| decklin wrote: | | SNIP ... If the song is copyrighted and you can't distribute it, a simfile is a derivative work and you can't distribute that either. .. |
I have taken an mp3 from a free and legal download source.
Does this mean that I can not legally distribute a step file that I made (for it)? The MP3 is not included and no graphics will be included. It'll just have a link to (or information on) where to go get the free MP3.
Opinions? |
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Sabre
Basic Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: EM-EN, greatest of the fifty |
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Arimasen
Trick Member
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
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| 54. Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Sabre wrote: | wow, StepMania IS a blatent rip-off of DDR Max (they just glued in a SM in place of DDR). It even uses it's characters... pretty good though
I wonder too. |
Nice almost-2-month bump.
You are only talking about the default theme of Stepmania. There are many other themes if you arent happy with the default. |
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CrazyBabyDoc
Basic Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| 55. Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Luigi30 wrote: | Once again.
If they sued the makers of StepMania for lost profits or whatever, they would also have to sue everyone who imports DDR machines, or they would be hypocrites. They wouldn't do that, since people playing DDR in America means that people will buy the crappy console mixes that they make. |
Witness the RIAA/MPAA affair and you will realize our legal system was never designed to be fair or punish hypocrites. The copyright holder can sue whomever they desire (everyone, no one, and anything in between). |
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Char
Trick Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
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| 56. Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The DDRUK thing was a bunch of made up crap. They still have all their downloads.
That said, why do people seem to think that EX outside Japan is "illegal"? It's no more illegal than a clock made by me with "YOU CAN'T TAKE THIS OUTSIDE AMERICA OK" on it. Unlicensed, sure, but then Konami would have to sue for infringement. It's not "Illegal", and even if you were to be sued over the regional use of something you legally bought, the armchair awyer in me says that the right to use something you legall bought comes under fair use. |
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ddR MiDNiGHt
Trick Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Location: SaN DiEGo, CaLi (City with the most DDR Machines Baby!) |
| 57. Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: Re: The real reason... |
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| CNLohr wrote: | LOL
StepMania is arguably more legal than actual DDR out of it's zone. (I.E. Playing DDREx home in a public area in america)
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Yeah. Isn't it illegal for DDR machines to be in america? It says somewhere in DDR, I forgot, "This game is for use and sale only in Japan" or something like that.
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Mint Blancmanche
Basic Member
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Joined: 01 May 2005
Location: Aboard the Trick Master |
| 58. Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: The real reason... |
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| ddR MiDNiGHt wrote: | | Yeah. Isn't it illegal for DDR machines to be in america? It says somewhere in DDR, I forgot, "This game is for use and sale only in Japan" or something like that. |
At this point, I don't think Konami cares. It's getting them home-version business. |
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Toast2323
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Joined: 22 May 2005
Location: Livonia, Michigan |
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