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roothorick
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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0.  Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:47 pm Post subject: SM to be used in commercial arcade dance game |
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I just recieved the following email via the stepmania-devs mailinglist. It's from Chris Danford himself. It has been modified in absolutely no way, except for stripping the mailer-daemon headers and maybe some formatting.
| Quote: | Hi all.
A few months ago, I brought up the issue of changing the StepMania license from GPL to a more permissive license. The main motivator for this change is that Im working on a commercial project that uses StepMania, and Id like to add some private copy protection that isnt compatible with the GPL license.
Ive been working with a company called Roxor Games for the last few months to develop a game called In The Groove. StepMania is the basic engine of the game, and my work has been to add new features to StepMania that are of interest to In The Groove. The main reason I agreed to this arrangement is that the SM community at large would benefit from this work. All changes have been checked into StepMania CVS, and the code has received much more attention than it would have otherwise. For example, 3D model support (and subsequently dancing characters) was added as part of this work.
This commercial game will require some sort of copy protection. My plan is to add a security mechanism that prevents people from copying the game content and using it with the vanilla StepMania executables that we release. This protection module wouldn't be committed to StepMania CVS or else the security would be compromised.
In order to make the license change legal, Id need the permission of all developers that have contributed to the StepMania code. Heres a complete list of all SourceForge users that have committed to the source code in CVS (sorted by number of commits):
chrisdanford
gmaynard
frieza
curewater
miryokuteki
coderjoe
hellfyre
stevecheckoway
drokulix
nmspaz
parasyte13
brunobf
avh4
bennord
billatq
i3dfsux
neovanglist
manuevans
bashmaster
kormac
matriarktervel
knightx
intrest86
thefox
angedelamort
uid80518
evil_angela
shabach
kumubou
vtrucco
binarys
kefabi
jasonasbahr
Id appreciate it if each person on this list would reply to this message privately with their permission or disapproval. If I dont hear back from you in 1 week, Ill attempt to make contact in a private e-mail.
I really want everyone to be rewarded for their hard work on StepMania, and I realize that many of you will be apprehensive about a more permissive license. In exchange for your permission, Id like to offer the following:
- your full name and alias in the In The Groove credits screen
- an In The Groove T-Shirt
- a copy of the game if/when there is a Windows release (I cant promise this absolutely because its still a while before the game will be released, and nothing is definite in the games industry. Ill send out an update to all developers in a few months.)
If you reply saying OK, please include your physical address so I can send out t-shirts (and the Windows version at a later date).
You can find more information about the game here: http://www.roxorgames.com/itg.html
Thanks for your time everyone! If you have any larger issues with the license switch, please Reply All to the list.
Heres the new license. Its very similar to the BSD and X11 licenses:
***
Copyright (c) Chris Danford et al
All rights reserved.
Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, provided that the above copyright notice(s) and this permission notice appear in all copies of the Software and that both the above copyright notice(s) and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation.
THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR HOLDERS INCLUDED IN THIS NOTICE BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, OR ANY SPECIAL INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
***
-Chris
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I'm absolutely giddy. I happen to be on that list (my SF alias is bashmaster). To think, my original intention was just to keep the sim comfortably usable in Linux... and now this! MY NAME, on the credits screen of absolutely hundreds of arcade machines!
I guess, so much for school tomorrow. it's 12:30am right now, and I definitely ain't gonna calm down after this.
(P.S.: I have no qualms about posting this email because it was sent to a public mailinglist. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, could have happened to be subscribed to the list and recieved the email.) |
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RollaJ
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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| 1. Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| For you Seattle, WA players, ITG (In the Groove) is actually being pre-alpha tested at Illuzionz. It has dozens of songs at or above the difficulty of PSM oni. It could become a very good game. Unfortunately, it will probably be ridiculously easy to pirate. |
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jihnsius
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2002
Location: FUCKING NEW YORK CITY SPEEDCORE!! |
| 2. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:28 am Post subject: |
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!!!
I have a feeling this game will be black and white with acceptance.. either everyone will love it, or everyone will hate it..
the gameplay looks... "interesting"
and.. putting effects on an opponent? unless you put "left, right, shuffle" on an opponent, you can just look at the other players screen..
but then again, if this game does well, we could have higher expectations from ddr 9th and above (if) |
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J Dogg
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 3. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:58 am Post subject: |
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How do they plan to do this without stepping on anyone's patents?
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roothorick
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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| 4. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:38 am Post subject: |
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How are patentholders going to enforce their patents without stepping on the toes of the hundreds of SM fans? (After all, Chris Danford himself is working on this game as a job!) And, does anyone remember Cyber Groove? And what about Britney's Dance Beat? I'm sure the patent issue has been covered before.
Of course, I'm in no way directly affiliated with the development of ItG, so I can't really answer as an authority. |
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J Dogg
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 5. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Well, Andamiro was certainly able to wield their power against Konami and prevented any future US arcade releases after DDR USA. It doesn't matter how many fans SM has. The law doesn't care.
I'm not familiar with Cyber Groove. Britney's dance beat was not an arcade game. I see a lot of legal hurdles to jump before this can become a reality.
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Mikeweiser
Trick Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, MI |
| 6. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I agree.
I respect what the SM Devs have done up to this point, because they have not been making money. But I don't know how they can package DDR around a new interface, call it theirs, and begin cashing in on someone elses idea. If major changes do not happen to the game, I hope Konami stops them any way possible. |
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Phrekwenci
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Location: New York, NY |
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J Dogg
Administrator
Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 8. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I really want everyone to be rewarded for their hard work on StepMania, and I realize that many of you will be apprehensive about a more permissive license. In exchange for your permission, Id like to offer the following:
- your full name and alias in the In The Groove credits screen
- an In The Groove T-Shirt
- a copy of the game if/when there is a Windows release (I cant promise this absolutely because its still a while before the game will be released, and nothing is definite in the games industry. Ill send out an update to all developers in a few months.) |
If I were a developer on this project, I would be wary of this. They want to make a commercial arcade game, and for permission to change the licensing, all they offer is a tshirt and some credit? Royalties seem more appropriate to me, or maybe even a cash settlement.
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roothorick
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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| 9. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Even before Chris announced this, I've been for changing the license. My philosophy is, and I blatantly ripped this from Glenn: the GPL is great in concept, but it doesn't do its job. The GPL requires anything that involves use or modification of the source code of a GPL'd project to be released under GPL, which hampers commercial use of GPL code. A more permissive license would let people use the code in commercial projects, as long as they keep our names on it. And actually, from an Open Source programmer's perspective, the situation I just described is quite ideal -- you get recognition you can put on a resume for volunteer work you probably enjoyed doing. (And no, Chris isn't paying me or otherwise influencing me to say good things about the new license. I actually honestly believe this.)
On the patent concerns -- I just ran searches on uspto.gov; Andamiro currently only has 3 US patents, and they all relate to lightguns. After a little more generic searching, I found out that if anyone, Konami would be able to shut out ItG. Look up US patent # 6,410,835 on uspto.gov (unfortunately the stupid BBCode won't let me link to it). That patent could certainly be used not only to shut out ItG, but to put an end to PiU as well. I really don't think there's much danger patent-wise, considering PiU is still going strong. (Of course, maybe Roxor lawyers should have peace talks with KoA reps first...) |
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parasyte
Trick Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
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| 10. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| J Dogg wrote: | | If I were a developer on this project, I would be wary of this. They want to make a commercial arcade game, and for permission to change the licensing, all they offer is a tshirt and some credit? Royalties seem more appropriate to me, or maybe even a cash settlement. |
Chris Danford has always been the lead developer on SM, and there's been talks for months about a license change. Virtually all the interesting code from ItG (IE not copy protection stuff) is already checked into CVS for the public stepmania project. Dancing characters, mines, various other mods, they've all been in SM first, and Danford, being the lead programmer on ItG, plans to continue contributing as much as he can to SM.
Regarding patents, it's better to not pay attention to them. Knowing about them and then deciding that you don't violate them makes one liable for triple damages for willful infringement if a judge decides that you did in fact violate them. Stupid legal system.
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RollaJ
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Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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| 11. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="parasyte"] | J Dogg wrote: |
Regarding patents, it's better to not pay attention to them. Knowing about them and then deciding that you don't violate them makes one liable for triple damages for willful infringement if a judge decides that you did in fact violate them. Stupid legal system. |
When I close my eyes I become invisible. |
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J Dogg
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 12. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose my business (some may call it greedy) side comes out. If I were a developer working on something for free, I would gladly do it for free. If I were a developer working at a for-profit enterprise, I would do the work only if I were paid accordingly. Some people are ok with doing volunteer work for a for-profit organization, and that's up to them I suppose. I just think that if someone is going to make money off my work, I'd better get a cut of it.
Regarding the patent searches... I recall doing a uspto search on andamiro in the past and coming up with something about a foot sensor rhythm music game, but it's not showing up anymore. *shrug*
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roothorick
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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| 13. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| tcl4ever2k4 wrote: | | When I close my eyes I become invisible. |
Read parasyte's post more thoroughly. There's a valid legal reason for "closing your eyes". |
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J Dogg
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 14. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| roothorick wrote: | | tcl4ever2k4 wrote: | | When I close my eyes I become invisible. |
Read parasyte's post more thoroughly. There's a valid legal reason for "closing your eyes". |
Unless, of course, the cost of putting the product out outweighs the triple damages for patent infringement, but I'm going on a tangent here...
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ZOOT
Roxor Staff
Joined: 06 Mar 2003
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| 15. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| These issues are being dealt with by legal councel--let's leave it to them, that's what they're paid for. :) |
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Razma
Vivid Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO |
| 16. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well, this has been discussed with myself and another SM heavy user who ported it to his system. (See Developers: Mike on the SM site. It shows a pic of his 4th mix machine with SM on it.)
We were thinking of making kits to sell using a new skin, new layout, and new, legal, music. We looked at hundreds of different pages discussing patent laws and the such, and found that the ONLY way to do this was to assemble machine with a new type of sensor method. Illegally modifiying a DDR machine, or any machine for that matter, would infringe on Konami's (or Andimiro's) copyright laws of that machine. The only probably way this could happen would be to make a new machine.
Discuss this with me on AIM, if you will.
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RollaJ
Trick Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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| 17. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Razma wrote: | Illegally modifiying a DDR machine, or any machine for that matter, would infringe on Konami's (or Andimiro's) copyright laws of that machine. The only probably way this could happen would be to make a new machine.
Discuss this with me on AIM, if you will. |
Can I get a full explanation on why modifying Konami's machine is illegal? What would legally be the difference between modifying a DDR machine (which you purchased and own, no contracts made) and modding a vehicle? I'm sure there are patents on many auto-parts. Here's what I'm thinking.
Some company has the right to the DDR sensor method. This is true. So obviously we cant COPY the idea completely to use it on our own. However, if we bought a piece of the technology then what would the problem be? If you're buying something (not intellectual property, again) then you can do what you want with it because you just BOUGHT it. Right? |
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J Dogg
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Joined: 16 Jan 2002
Location: Sunnyvale, CA |
| 18. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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If you buy the sensor product and use it in your machine, I believe that is legal.
However, if you buy the product and manufacture it on your own, that is stealing the intellectual property and that is illegal.
So, if they wanted to, yes, they could probably buy as many DDR machines as they want to produce In the Groove games, modify each one, and it would be fine. However, that is not cost effective (since a DDR machine costs $1000+), and your margins are going to be very low, with the price of the machine very high.
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RollaJ
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Joined: 26 Oct 2003
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| 19. Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| J Dogg wrote: | If you buy the sensor product and use it in your machine, I believe that is legal.
However, if you buy the product and manufacture it on your own, that is stealing the intellectual property and that is illegal.
So, if they wanted to, yes, they could probably buy as many DDR machines as they want to produce In the Groove games, modify each one, and it would be fine. However, that is not cost effective (since a DDR machine costs $1000+), and your margins are going to be very low, with the price of the machine very high. |
Well, you're using a different internal hardware (running the thing right out of a normal computerboxmachine) so you can start picking up ddr machines that are broken, or have the mainboards removed, or even old mixes that can't be upgraded (1.5, etc) and in the end per-unit cost would be much cheaper than if you were to buy a ddr machine, with what I think is a high likelyhood of more play. This of course only matters for the individual machine(s) owner, not if you plan on reselling them.
Since they're not even in alpha yet, I'm willing to bet nobody intends on making ITG run on a ddr machine, but it would be a lot easier to test the software on an already existing machine, so they can have all of it worked out before designing its cabinet. It makes sense to me. |
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